Marc, I take it you don't buy into the theory/complaint that Zappa tended to use Van Vliet as he would a trained chimp?

I'd argue that Zappa treated everyone that way; they were all there to do what he wanted.

Who cares how Zappa treated his bandmates? Beefheart certainly wasn't the best boss to work for, but does that make "Lick My Decals Off, Baby" any less great?

And folks like Miles & Mingus didn't treat their band like shit? Ask Coltrane or Jimmy Knepper's gut. It's quantitative versus qualitative, I guess, & it doesn't matter a lick. It's the music. That's all there is.

Bongo Fury is a high water mark for some species of music, regardless, & for Zappa as well. After the mid 70's, it's a long, slow trek to mediocrity.

Wasn't it Knepper's grill & Coltrane's gut?

Steve Vai was to Zappa as Randy Rhoads was to Ozzy.

Knepper's Grill, a great place to double up by. Where I'm from we call it "Doin' the Oswald."

I agree, Jeffrey. The point was that he was a very demanding band leader. From what I can tell many of the people who played with did their best work with him - that's more than likely due to his uncompromising vision.

I still would like to hear the original "Bat Chain Puller" that Zappa sat on and never released. Walto could fill us in more, but Zappa treated Van Vliet very shabbily. He was very much a business man, though, and I expect cut nobody any slack.

While I love BF and all of the mid-Seventies stuff, I'm still a fool for the earlier stuff: "Absolutely Free", WOIIFTM, "Lumpy Gravy", "Uncle Meat", "Weasels Ripped My Flesh", etc.

Clay, that "Bat Chain Puller" early version has been released as "Dust Sucker." Don't know if it's still available. No big surprises on it; in other words, the hype about it being some kind of holy revelation is just hype (and the fidelity is not that great). I much prefer the version of Bat Chain Puller on "Shiny Beast."

Sun Ra told his bandmates: "You're in the Ra jail, and it's the best jail in the world."

Frickin killer album.

I don't know, I think that the whole 'Zappa as tyrant bandleader' notion is fairly overblown, at least based on the info I've come across. I get the impression that a high percentage of his bandmates revered him long after leaving his bands. Not to say that he wasn't insanely demanding, but I'd guess that after the original Mothers, most musicians knew what they were getting into when they signed on.

As to the relationship with Beefheart, I mean, they were childhood friends - I'd venture to say that there were some complexities in that relationship to which 99% of the recipients of journalism/rumors weren't/aren't privy. I don't mean to say that Zappa was beyond reproach, but Beefheart seemed, um, capricious and frankly batshit [Bat Shit Puller!], to say the least. Anyone read Zoot Horn Rollo's Lunar Notes?

Anyone heard the version of "Advance Romance" on "Make A Jazz Noise Here"? I always thought it was weird that Ike Willis and others seemed to be duplicating phrase-for-phases the Duke/Murphy-Brock banter. A great a band as that was (the 1988 touring band), that sort of artificiality and turning what what seemed to be spontaneity on the 75 recording into scripted material is in keeping with Zappa's tightassed attitude toward his legacy and work. It seems to have sustained him financially in a business where there are many more losers than winners, so it's really to his credit.

I don't think I suggested above that he was a "tyrant", just that he was very demanding. The results of that ethic are obvious in the quality of the recorded work, the live performances and his ex-musicians continued respect.

Beefheart bat-shit? I suppose. I always thought that was why I liked his music so much. He's has an enormous influence, though. I would even argue that his influence is even more widespread than Zappa's. That's my take in what I've heard of some of the newer prog-ish stuff out there. Beefheart, Crimson and Zappa all seem to have had a lasting impact.

I should say that I've loved Beefheart's music for a long time. He just seems really unhinged, but you're right, I'm sure that's a huge factor in why his music sounds as it does. And I agree that he seems to have more lasting influence in some circles than Zappa - he seems to have more cache among the 'hipper' circles.

Make a Jazz Noise Here was one of my first couple Zappa recordings I ever heard, so I do know that version of Advance Romance - in fact, it was the first one I heard. I understand your stance on the evolution/non-evolution of various things over the years, and agree in large part with the sentiment, but it might be worth considering that Ike Willis was with Zappa as early as 79 at least, so it could be possibly a result of him settling in to a 'thing' with that tune.

>>I don't think I suggested above that he was a "tyrant", just that he was very demanding. The results of that ethic are obvious in the quality of the recorded work, the live performances and his ex-musicians continued respect.

My first reply was intended more as a response to what I perceived as an accumulated viewpoint on the subject, not specifically towards your statement.

MAJNH is a fantastic recording. His medley of the old stuff on there is great and the opening rap about Jimmy Swaggart is really funny.

I was lucky enough to see that band back in '87 and 88. They did a great Beatles medley ("I am The Walrus", "Norwegan Wood", and some other - some of them with Swaggertized lyrics). A great horn section with the Fowler brothers; there was nothing better. Somehow after their spring '88 leg of the tour, the band broke up. I'm not sure what happened.

"The Best Band You Never Heard" was great too, with the same band.

I've really enjoyed recently going back to "Absolutely Free". It is really hard to belive that it came out in early '67 at the height of flower power - there was not much else like it.

My guilty pleasure is "Crusin' With Rubin And The Jets". I can't listen to it enough. I found a vinyl copy of it a few years ago and it's much better than the CD version with all except one of the tracks ("Stuff Up The Cracks") with rerecorded bass and drums. If all you can find is the CD, it's still worth checking out.

Yeah, I listened the shit out of Jazz Noise back in the day, it will always hold a special place for me. I've heard boots of the Beatles medleys, they were indeed great. On the same boot was a straight cover of I Am the Walrus which was also sweet. The breakup was the result of Zappa being disgusted with band infighting that he was not a part of, most of it centered arount Scott Thunes. That's the really short version, there's plenty of shit out there on the ol' interweb about it.

Don't forget Broadway the Hard Way from the same tour, also.

That 60's stuff is indeed something else, though I must say that I actually have never even heard Ruben, actually. Uncle Meat was consistently my favorite from that period, with We're Only In It for the Money and Lumpy Gravy tied for second.

I saw that 1988 tour too; they played at Fairleigh Dickinson University here on the East Coast. I wasn't a huge Zappa listener at that point, mostly familiar with Hot Rats and Joe's Garage, so I didn't know most of the old songs, and there were a lot of new ones, too, as Broadway The Hard Way (live recordings of new songs with audience noise mostly edited out) bears out. My clearest memory of the show was the cover of "Stairway To Heaven," on which the horn section played Jimmy Page's solo and Zappa followed that with a guitar solo of his own that was mind-roasting. I also remember him sending his guitar backstage for re-tuning, or swapping it for a different one, after each solo. I'm very glad I got to see him, even though I'm still hardly a huge fan. I've never heard the album nominally under discussion here, for example.