Amen. This is one of the truly great records.

Hear, hear. This is a record which chucks 90% or more of today's improvised CD's into a cocked hat.

This is a big one for me, Sextessense is obviously based on it. Kent Carter is amazing.

"This is a record which chucks 90% or more of today's improvised CD's into a cocked hat."

- You would have to have heard 100% of them to qualify that. There are a lot of great improvised music recordings being made all the time. Not that I don't love this one..

"This is a record which chucks 90% or more of today's improvised CD's into a cocked hat."

I appreciate the enthusiasm, there's some great moments on Quintessence, but turning music, especially improvised music, into a competition isn't exactly commensurate with the ideals of the music (neither is over-romanticising the past). The duo recordings (Stevens/Watts) tacked on here aren't so hot.

Are you sure that's an L in the middle name Graham, or an N for Nostalgia. I'm sure it was wonderful seeing John Stevens and his boys back in the Little Theatre Club, and Quintessence is indeed one of the great improv records, but I agree with the comments above. When you put things on pedestals they eventually fall off, or get knocked off. Always safer to keep your feet on the ground. Meanwhile, a bit of nostalgia for y'all -
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
I was happier then and I had nothin'. We used to live in this tiny old house with great big holes in the roof.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
House! You were lucky to live in a house! We used to live in one room, all twenty-six of us, no furniture, 'alf the floor was missing, and we were all 'uddled together in one corner for fear of falling.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Eh, you were lucky to have a room! We used to have to live in t' corridor!
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
Oh, we used to dream of livin' in a corridor! Would ha' been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woke up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House? Huh.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Well, when I say 'house' it was only a hole in the ground covered by a sheet of tarpaulin, but it was a house to us.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
We were evicted from our 'ole in the ground; we 'ad to go and live in a lake.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
You were lucky to have a lake! There were a hundred and fifty of us living in t' shoebox in t' middle o' road.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
Cardboard box?
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Aye.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years, and when we got home our Dad would slice us in two wit' bread knife.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.

"but turning music, especially improvised music, into a competition isn't exactly commensurate with the ideals of the music"

darn right

Although having said that I, too, own this record (well actually the two-volume edition that it replaced but it's the same music I think)

Evidently it's all happening elsewhere, Graham (at IHM perhaps).. no good trying to stir up the pot here at Bags, cuz EVERYONE'S ASLEEP. Maybe we should start posting under someone else's name.. we've already had Hassell and Lachenmann. Who's next? How about Noel COWARD, for those who won't divulge their real names..
Meanwhile Marc, your review didn't mention the extra tracks on the disc, especially "Corsop" (nmperign travel back in time!) and the wild weird yodelling of DaaOom. All terrific stuff.

zzzzzzzzzzz :)

Dan:

I did try posting on Bags under a different other name a while back, but no-one noticed ... (no, I'm not going to tell you what it was!) ...

I guess they're all quintessentially out of it.

actually, as Dan said, there's plenty of music discussion going on at the domain name that scares you away. good Radu Malfatti and Sonic Youth threads, among plenty of others...

http://ihatemusic.noquam.com/

Jon, my good man. When you guys decide you love music, I'll take a look at you.

well, it's pretty safe to say your tastes are a lot closer to the average IHM poster than they are to the average ILM poster:

http://www.ilxor.com:8080/ILX/NewAnswersControllerServlet?boardid=41

but if you can't get past the name, your loss.

Jon: No, it's not my loss. It's your hate. Even so, I anxiously await the day when I can at last open your website without being cocooned in such evil.

hate doesn't equal evil, and the name of the site will never change.

If the site name remains unchanged, then I, and any sensitive, halfway intelligent human being, will not look at it. For obvious reasons.

well, I guess you'll have to hold out for allmusicisspecial.com, good luck with that.

That was a worthwhile exchange.

What's with the Captain America thread? I can't seem to draw a bead on Bags' parameters.

Silly response, Jon. You have publicly declared, internationally, that you hate music. You have no defence.

"That was a worthwhile exchange."

because you always add so much. let he with some content throw the first stone, huh?

"You have publicly declared, internationally, that you hate music. You have no defence."

don't be even more of a moron, Graham. I've dedicated the last ten years of my life to running a label. if you can't comprehend a little nuance, at least you could have a little respect and stop being an asshole about it. you've complained multiple times here about the lack of content/discussion that you're interested here, I'm just trying to help you out, that's all. I'm out, so rarely a good idea to post on this site.

we don't let any quams post on the board, either.

this is a fine album, though. much more interesting than that other topic.

m

Dunno 'bout music but I'm pretty sure I hate Graham L. Rogers.

because you always add so much.

I try. Sarcasm duly noted though.

so rarely a good idea to post on this site.

That opinion doesn’t seem to have stopped you in the past. For the record, I think it’s admirable that you’ve selflessly devoted the last decade of your life to running a label. What I can’t comprehend or condone is the hubris that comes with it.

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one & yours certainly aren’t exempt from exuding stink. It's also amusing that this is something like your sixth try at steering Mr. Rogers over to IHM. You'd think you'd get the knuckle sandwich hint by now that he's not interested.

Back to the far more interesting original topic, it’s great to have these two discs available in a single package & sequenced in a way that makes even more sense. Definitely an upper echelon improv set. Anyone heard the recent Oxley/Bailey archival release on Tzadik and care to comment?

The Cap thing isn’t “traditional” Bags content, just a news bite that caught my eye that I thought I’d comment on given a latent love of comics.

I’ll never fully get why folks find it so worthwhile to scrap around here. Sometimes it’s like a Romper Room class after a sugared cereal binge. Why can’t we comment about the content instead of each other?

Ok, I am just back from hearing Le Quan Ninh and Frediric Blondy - great show.
I have to side with Jon about Graham needing to check out IHM.
Graham is being stubborn about an obviously ironic name, he would enjoy the discussion there.

As far as derek's coment, I am going to re-listen to this music tonight. I listened to it over and over about 8 years ago around when we made "Sextessense".

Well, it's nice to see the thread woke up. Thought that little IHM bit would elicit some response. It was that or some snooty remark about Radio Albania in 1967. Haha. Not that you're interested, but I spent the best part of last night listening to the Gunter Muller Cut CD (four times in a row, cuz it's that good). Oops wrong thread..
As for Graham, it's that old line about taking a horse to water. His loss, endae story, stop rapping on about it.
No, haven't heard the Oxley / Bailey. The Joseph Holbrooke bash was disappointing enough. Should I? The last Oxley I heard was a CDR of Ichnos kindly sent my way by Graham L. (for LOVE) Rogers!
How many people showed up for the Ninh gig, Damon?

given the amount of 'scrapping' that either goes on (or is said to go on) here, something sure does attract the 'big names' (insofar as any name could be said to be big - I guess it depends on the type):

"Posted by: Trevor Watts at March 12, 2007 3:57 PM"
and I'm sure I've read a comment by John Butcher somewhere...

maybe there's something of the ancient Romans in us all after all......

Thanks for the laughs gentlemen! Nice to see Bags awake again. If nothing else, they caused me to re-listen to "Quintessence".

How many recordings has anyone heard which they will go back to in 33 years from today, i.e. in 2040, and listen to again with the same sense of wonderment that this music creates?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this only released on LP in 1986? I don't remember hearing anything about it in the early 80s. If that's the case, maybe there are concerts that have been recorded this year and won't be released until 2019.. so please don't ask us to play crystal ball gazers, Graham. It's a dangerous business at the best of times. Anyway, this is just your sneaky way of repeating your "good old days" line from above. You ain't foolin' anyone..
And, at the risk of going round the same old bloody houses yet again, if you checked out some of the discussion elsewhere (I won't mention any particular sites but you KNOW which one I'm talking about) you might want to check out more of the recent stuff. FWIW, I could give you list of albums that I suspect might "stand the test of time" but it seems you're determined not to change your mind. So why bother?

Dan -
Put the list here anyway, cuz I'd like to see it. Given the wildly flooded CD market I find myself not being able to keep up with all the reviews, let alone actually buying/hearing a lot of the albums. As a result, most of the new recordings I hear are things given to me by friends or new acquaintances for whom I've organized a gig. Most of my buying tends toward filling in gaps in the collection in areas of music other than improvised/new/etc.

There's definitely a danger in getting too misty over the good old days and it's difficult to tell what will be considered classic years from now. Sometimes an album hits you in some way that you feel certain that THIS is a classic. Years pass and at times the instinct proves to be true, other times you revisit the recording and it doesn't knock you nearly as much as it did back then. With improvised music, it's even trickier given the nature of its production. A lot of us probably regard Topography, Elf Bagatellen, Balls, Aida, For Alto, and others as classics now, but that was likely the furthest things from the minds of their creators, who were just trying to do their best, be creative, then move on to whatever was next. I guess once 10 years pass we start re-evaluating things for their classic status.

Give us that list, Dan - I'm genuinnely interested... Feel like I need to catch up!

Dan: I'd honestly love to see your list of albums which would stand the test of time. Please go ahead and bother. If there are any I don't know, I'll happily take your recommendation and seek them out.

I don't remember exactly when "Quintessence" was released to be frank, but we know when it was played, that's what I had in mind.

Lest any of us forget, "Quintessence" was issued by the wonderful Martin Davidson, whose Emanem label describes itself as follows:

"COMPACT DISCS OF UNADULTERATED NEW MUSIC
FOR PEOPLE WHO LIKE NEW MUSIC UNADULTERATED"

Now there's a man who loves music.

...and a man who strikes a healthy balance between issuing recordings of new music by contemporary and emerging musicians AND making some older gems available for those of us born too late to catch 'em the first time around.

Then there's Emanems which combine the archival with the (then) new... like "Fairly Early Derek Bailey with Postscripts" and "Domestic & Public Pieces" - both of which I love.

speaking of Derek Bailey, I have it in mind to grab maybe a solo disc of his, any suggestions?

There were about 30 or so people at the Nihn gig. They played great.
I got the Oxeley/Bailey duo from emusic. It was well worth the $1 or so I paid for it.

"Aida" not being widely available at the moment (where's Martin Davidson when you need him), I might go for "New Sights, Old Sounds," a double-CD re-release of music recorded in Japan in 1978. There's plenty of other great ones, hard to go wrong, really.

ok, thanks

Get a hold of a burn of the o/p Drop Me Off at 96th. Probably the single best Bailey solo disc I've heard (I have about a dozen or so). It's all-acoustic. Aida is another great one, again o/p. (It's electric.)

Lace is nearly as good as DMO@96th & it's still in-print, from Emanem.

Gaah, why did I mention that? OK Rob, I'll put my thinking cap on and try to beam myself forward to 2040. May take some time though. Perhaps I'll cook it up as a feature piece for Paris Transatlantic.

That's a fools' errand, Dan. Just end up pissing people off (and, probably, rewarding others too highly).

Incidentally, how much of your 40th b-day list is intact today?

I think you might be right Walt. It would also need some serious relistening of albums I haven't touched for several months. Could be fun, but would take a helluva long time. As far as the Top 40 goes, not a single change.. but I'm still furious at leaving out George Clinton, and about a zillion others. I think I'd include Quintessence in a Top 50 though, and may well do so if I'm still alive to do it in 2013.. as it is, I'm heading for the same painful death as Charles Valentin Alkan, crushed when a bookshelf fell on him. He was, apparently, reaching for a copy of the Talmud. I imagine I'd be trying to get at a Steely Dan CD.

Last month it was Topography that was the single must-have recording of Euro improv. Some time before that it was Elf. Etc. Etc. Etc. Let the hyperventilating stop!

Besides, if case anybody is wondering what the truth REALLY is, the single greatest recording of British improvisers ever is that never released Parker/Dunmall/Guy/Rogers/Levin recording of the concert in Birmingham (not the "Birmingham Concert" of a couple years before without Guy--that's great too, but not AS great and the sound is bad).

I thought you'd like to know.

I don't see it as a fool's errand...I'm actually interested in checking out some recent (say, the last 10 years) recordings that Dan sees as being of some significance and/or that (so far) seem to hold up on repeated listenings and still yield interest.

Not expecting him to pull a Nostrodamus and predict what will be in the 'Penguine Guide to EAI' or somesuch in the future when we're all in silver jumpsuits with jetpacks. More like going through year-end/top 10 lists of the last few years and re-evaluating which ones still enthrall. There's probably a lot I've missed.

On a side note, Frank Gratkowski played a nice 2 sets of duos with a cellist friend of mine Helen Gillet at Sound Cafe last night. FG's clarinet playing is especially impressive. Really like that no-mouthpiece/shakuhachi technique he uses on occasion. Bought the disc with Lehn + Poore and eager to check it out on Damon's recommendation.

Oh, and also - DB's "Aida" is solo acoustic.

"Lace" is excellent, and currently in print. DB's Epiphone archtop sounds beautiful on that one.

For solo electric, I'd recommend "Improvisation" on the Italian label Cramps (reissued a couple times, most recently by Ampersand), which features some of Bailey's best playing from the period when he was using stereo amplification with two volume pedals. Some amazing panning and spatial disorientation on that one. "Incus Taps" is also great, but likely hard to find these days.

I think Topography is a fabulous record, and of great interest for what it represents (Incus debut etc etc), but if I had to choose between that and the SME set, it'd be Quintessence. But who needs to choose? Get both.
Re: the Great List.. I'm flattered you think my opinions might count for something Rob, but if we're talking just improv (as I think I understand the brief), there are some far more serious improv heads than I posting here. Jacques Oger, for instance, or, if we dig him up, Jean Michel van Schouwburg (who's just published a fabulous mini-book on SME in Improjazz.. that's in French, sorry, but maybe you in New Orleans could just about decipher it :)
The simple fact of the matter is I don't have ALL the albums of all the key musicians! Quite a few, for sure, but I remember when Jon Abbey came round for dinner and glanced at the shelves and said "Huh, you don't have many albums" heh heh
But anyway, fool's errand though it might be, it's rather tempting to play crystal balls once in a while. I'll keep you posted if I decide to do it and send you the bill for the vitamin supplements and cocaine I'll need to keep me awake, Rob.
I think olf Gratkowski would be in there though - what a great player!

"Now there's a man who loves music."

but hates rock music, radio, engineering, and shaving.

Loves: eating meat, picking his nose, and sex.

http://www.emanemdisc.com/addenda/habits.html

The simple fact of the matter is I don't have ALL the albums of all the key musicians! Quite a few, for sure, but I remember when Jon Abbey came round for dinner and glanced at the shelves and said "Huh, you don't have many albums"

Makes me wonder how many of those improv albums Jon still has at this stage of the game. My money sez you now have him beat by a fairly decent margin.

Lace is the solo Bailey I return to the most.

There's no shortage of Martin Davidson love around these parts, nor should their be. He continues to set the standard for "scene" documentation, IMO.

Yes, Mr. Davidson is a treasure, and I'm grateful for his existence. But......he should put out that Parker/Dunmall/etc. record post haste--at least if Rare Music isn't going to release it.

Without that, the KEY DOCUMENT remains a boot.

There's something deeply ironic about music which was supposed to be 'of the moment', either becoming a rare, fetishised item through its scarceness, or reopening old wounds when it is eventually re-released.

If people are prepared to spend several hundred dollars on an OOP Incus or FMP LP, then why does the CD re-release not necessarily sell in economic quantities?

It's good to see several blogs offering vinyl rips of many of the OOP items - this removes unneeded layers of mystique and allows the music to be judged on its own merits. Long may this continue - it's the best way to cut through the noise and to focus on the music.

If I'm honest, neither Quintessence nor Karyobin are 'great' pieces of music - there are much better, much more inspired pieces that have emerged from free improvisation. This doesn't mean, of course, that they aren't important milestones in the development of the music.

It would also be great to read a comprehensive history of free jazz and free improvisation - IMHO, neither Watson's nor Heffley's books make the grade, unfortunately.

"If people are prepared to spend several hundred dollars on an OOP Incus or FMP LP, then why does the CD re-release not necessarily sell in economic quantities?"

Just because a few really obsessive people have nothing better to spend their money on, doesn't mean there's a mass of equally obsessed people with less money to spend. What the crazy collectors should be convinced to do is to buy an equivalent cost-amount of the cd reissues. That way, they've still spent a silly amount of money and maintained a proportional exclusivity of their possesions. However, they've given hundreds of dollars to a record label instead of a market trawler.

"It would also be great to read a comprehensive history of free jazz and free improvisation -"

You can never have a comprehensive history of anything.

"If I'm honest, neither Quintessence nor Karyobin are 'great' pieces of music - there are much better, much more inspired pieces that have emerged from free improvisation."
Such as? Care to give us a few names there? And what if you're dishonest :)?

I re-listened to this once this week, I still love the details and it was a formitave document for me. Iskra's buzz soundtrack did more for me this week, though.