His amplified and feedback sax work is truly original -- and breathtakingly beautiful. I'm a big fan of invisible ear and feel lucky to have snagged a copy, used.

Beautiful review, Derek. I still have to listen to this, but Butcher is at the very top in my book. Those who lay "claims of an emotional sterility" in vibration-based music should be ignored as always. Sentiment itself is a chemical reaction. Not anybody's fault if people just can't react to the fundamental physics of life. They can always stick to Mozart, though.

Thanks, Massimo. To be honest, it took me awhile to warm to Butcher back in the late 90s. It was actually an affable conversation with him prior to a gig that got me in tune with what he was doing. This one is pretty amazing.

I love Butcher, and this one is great. He is continually developing. You might have thought that the feedback thing was a one-trick pony, but the development here is pretty clear from previous releases.

Also, the recording of the pieces in the cave and gas canister are great because it captures his sound up front, plus the reverberations from the space. I am often dissapointed by recordings done in reverberant spaces because the details of the sound get lost and muddy. Not so here.

His empirical interests have sometimes led to claims of an emotional sterility in his music. Not coincidentally, it’s a charge leveled throughout the years at other improvisers whose interests gravitate toward the analytical. Everyone from Lee Konitz to Evan Parker has at one time or another has had such baggage foisted on them and just as wrongly so.

Do we know that he or the others would object to such a claim (or wouldn't at least be ok with it if it utilized a less negative word than "sterility" (like, maybe "neutrality" or "blankness")? Stravinsky wouldn't have, at any rate.

Why must music be 'emotional' to be good (or "non-sterile")?

Good point Walt. My answer would be "Because most people desperately need to believe that their hearts beat for a reason that's different from psychophysical processes". They're just unprepared for accepting different kinds of vibrational pattern, and asking them to abandon the trodden paths ("emotional music") for a new one is usually too much. I'm not hoping in many Barry Manilow-to-Phill Niblock conversions indeed.

Why must music be 'emotional' to be good (or "non-sterile")?

Where did I posit that, Walt?

I have read where Konitz and Parker have taken umbrage at the ascription of emotional sterility, but I don’t know how they would feel about “neutrality” or “blankness” as a substitute . Fwiw, I don’t usually hear either of those conditions in Butcher’s music, or Konitz’s or Parker’s, for that matter.

A question for walto and massimo:
If you don't have an emotional response to music that you listen to, why do you listen to it again? Or do you just listen to everything once and log it into your cranial databases for comparison? Or maybe your definitions of emotion are merely more limited than mine... I would include awe as an emotion, and Butcher's playing certainly inspires that.
I would recommend Charles Eisenstein's book, The Ascent of Humanity to each of you. It's available for perusal @ http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/.

The most passion I have ever seen expressed in music was Jim Tenney doing a lecture demonstration of the Cage Sonatas and Interludes, he had gone so deep into that music and clearly loved it so much it was really powerful.

I think passion for music is expressed by your depth of involvment, not squinting, grunting and bending a few notes.

Tom, I read Walt’s point a bit differently. I think he was touching on musician intent, not listener response. There are musicians who seek to divest some of their work of obvious emotional content (& thereby render it ‘neutral’ or ‘blank’ in that regard). Walt mentioned Stravinsky for one, though I’m ill-equipped to substantiate that claim. I’ve heard some eai that seems to fit this bill.

question for walto and massimo:
If you don't have an emotional response to music that you listen to, why do you listen to it again? Or do you just listen to everything once and log it into your cranial databases for comparison? Or maybe your definitions of emotion are merely more limited than mine... I would include awe as an emotion, and Butcher's playing certainly inspires that.

I'm not sure why you think I must not have any emotional response when I listen to music. All I said was that Butcher might not like the theory that every piece of music must either "express an emotion" or be "emotionally sterile."

Also, I'd think one could elicit an emotion in listeners without expressing one. E.g., an ambulence siren might elicit fear.

Finally, if you're asking whether music generally elicits an emotional response in me, if I like it, it elicits what I'd call an aesthetic response--I don't know if that's properly called 'emotional' or not. Sometimes, either with or without that aesthetic response, there might be, say, sadness or elation. But I don't think I get that sort of thing even with every piece I like. That is, I might love what Derek has called an "analytical" (maybe I'd prefer "cerebral") work without having what I think should be called an "emotional response." And I might not care for a piece even though I think it is sad. (An example of that is that Kronos Quartet piece with the recording of the mother mourning the death of her child.)

I'm not sure why you think I must not have any emotional response when I listen to music. All I said was that Butcher might not like the theory that every piece of music must either "express an emotion" or be "emotionally sterile."

I was thinking you were questioning whether music needed to BE emotional to be good, not necessarily express an emotion. I agree with Damon's comment.

Also, I'd think one could elicit an emotion in listeners without expressing one. E.g., an ambulence siren might elicit fear.

I agree 100%.

Finally, if you're asking whether music generally elicits an emotional response in me, if I like it, it elicits what I'd call an aesthetic response--I don't know if that's properly called 'emotional' or not. Sometimes, either with or without that aesthetic response, there might be, say, sadness or elation. But I don't think I get that sort of thing even with every piece I like. That is, I might love what Derek has called an "analytical" (maybe I'd prefer "cerebral") work without having what I think should be called an "emotional response." And I might not care for a piece even though I think it is sad. (An example of that is that Kronos Quartet piece with the recording of the mother mourning the death of her child.)

This was the aspect of your post and Massimo's post that prompted me to write... I just don't understand what someone is getting out of an experience if they're not feeling anything. There's plenty of music (and books and movies, etc.) out there that I can listen to and see that it's put together well, has interesting elements and expresses itself clearly, but it just doesn't do anything for me. I don't tend to listen to this stuff again, and would usually say that I don't like it. I don't understand why anyone would want to listen to music that doesn't excite them in some way.

I don't think you and I use terms like "emotion" and "excited by" the same way.

Tom:
please check my first post. It clearly tells you that I do feel an "emotional" response even in musics that are usually perceived as "cold".
But that doesn't mean that I cry when listening to Tchaikovsky's "Swan Lake", if you get my point.
Thanks anyway for the book suggestion, although the very title is in total opposition to my idea about humanity ("Ascent"? HA!)

On a second thought, and after having checked the book's URL:

I'm amazed at how many people are still interested in this kind of "evolutional" blather where there's no actual point except showing "what I am, what studies I did, what my experiences are, how COSMIC I can get, how Zen my attitude is" to other people who have exactly the same aim.

"no actual point except showing "what I am, what studies I did, what my experiences are, how COSMIC I can get, how Zen my attitude is" to other people who have exactly the same aim."

care to elaborate old sport?

Those who know what they're doing in life exercise their power and capabilities. The ones that would love to be there but can't, talk about human evolution, Zen and the likes.
In other words, a storm does not have a degree in meteorology.

a fair point well made

Those who know what they're doing in life exercise their power and capabilities. The ones that would love to be there but can't, talk about human evolution, Zen and the likes.

FWIW, I have never discovered any correlation between talent and having (espousing) or not having (or espousing) any particular views about evolution, Zen, politics or anything else.

Whether or not any storms have ever had degrees in meteorology, some of the biggest ones have apparently thought they had.

an equally fair point equally well made

(although I'm not following the FWIW thing, what is that?)

"Whether or not any storms have ever had degrees in meteorology, some of the biggest ones have apparently thought they had."

Now that's what I call Zen, Walter!

FWIW = For What It's Worth

Ah, damn... I swore I was going to stay away from posting here, but I can't help myself.

Massimo, I read your first post correctly, I believe. My problem is with the concept that we're just automatons and feelings and emotions are just chemical reactions. I recommended the book because it deals with this notion directly.
Now, I'm not sure how much of it you read, but I think you may be misunderstanding it. The title, which you said you disagree with, is sarcastic... he's mocking the concept of progress just like you did. The book is really a diagnosis of the ills of our civilization that gets into some specifics, not just some feel good new age stuff.

Tom

"The Ascent of Humanity is about the history and future of civilization from a unique perspective: the evolution of the human sense of self"

and

"More than anything, The Ascent of Humanity is about how to create the more beautiful world our hearts tell us is possible"

For sure my concept of sarcasm is slightly different from what this man wrote to introduce his book.

And - a chemical reaction in a human body generates emotion (crying, trembling with fear, you name it). Does this affirmation make a robot of a man? I don't think so.

Massimo, you didn't read the first chapter:

This, in a nutshell, is the ascent of humanity that Jacob Bronowski was referring to in his classic The Ascent of Man, after which the present volume is ironically named. It is an ascent from the depths of superstition and ignorance into the light of scientific reason; an ascent from fear and powerlessness in the face of natural forces to the mastery of those forces. A myth is a story that provides a template for understanding ourselves and our world; as well it is a program that guides our choices and priorities. Accordingly, I will distinguish the myth of ascent into two aspects: the Scientific Program of complete understanding and the Technological Program of complete control.

And - a chemical reaction in a human body generates emotion (crying, trembling with fear, you name it). Does this affirmation make a robot of a man? I don't think so.

So what was your original point?

Exactly the same, Tom: "sentiment itself is a chemical reaction". Robots don't cry, men do. But a chemical reaction it does remain.

I'd like to stress that I fully respect your opinion, we just happen to have two different views. Mine is not a polemic stance.

I'm still unconvinced about the sarcasm thing, though. I smell a big ego after all that "sarcasm". But you're right: one should read the whole book to release a correct judgement, so I'll give up on this. I am nevertheless convinced that, differently from sounds, no book or human being can really teach anything to anyone. As this very exchange between the two of us shows, everybody keep their own convictions. Which is great!

Ok, Massimo, I'll end the discussion as well. But I'll leave with another disagreement: to disprove your assertion, I have personally learned from human beings through their writings... Idries Shah and Ran Prieur being the two that come to mind first.

Cari
Non continuo questa discussione a proposito d'uno libro scritto in inglese (Salud Tom , we go again in the Archiduc for a duo of Hubweber and Zoubek 11th november, you met Paul Hubweber, didn't you ?) Scusi, solo molto interessato alla Geometria del sentimento. Penso che Butcher è un molto interessante improvisatore. He is very methodic and a geometric sound builder. He is very logic. And what is interesting about him , I think , is when he is meeting some poets of the guitar ( John Russell), the double bass (John Edwards or the late Matt Sperry in a trio with Robair), the voice (Vanessa Mackness on Respiritus) ...... there is a friction a sort of tension besides the fact that both are listening to each other.
Loved to listen to his duo with Phil Minton "Apples of Gomorrah" cd on GroB, even if it is some evident trying laboratory like , a bit........
So if you put Butcher with a systematic player like Graewe, it will not catch your attention like the others. I got the same feeling with his duo with Paal Nilsson Love on Clean Feed.
So Butcher looks not full of passion like say Doneda , seems to be distant a bit analytical , but his asset is that he doesn't search the company of musical partners who are in the same state of mind...... By example John loves Lol Coxhill a lot and you can't imagine more different personnalities. So all this conversation about his mathematical state of mind and Butcher's emotionality is hors du sujet.

Cari
Non continuo questa discussione a proposito d'uno libro scritto in inglese (Salud Tom , we go again in the Archiduc for a duo of Hubweber and Zoubek 11th november, you met Paul Hubweber, didn't you ?) Scusi, solo molto interessato alla Geometria del sentimento. Penso che Butcher è un molto interessante improvisatore. He is very methodic and a geometric sound builder. He is very logic. And what is interesting about him , I think , is when he is meeting some poets of the guitar ( John Russell), the double bass (John Edwards or the late Matt Sperry in a trio with Robair), the voice (Vanessa Mackness on Respiritus) ...... there is a friction a sort of tension besides the fact that both are listening to each other.
Loved to listen to his duo with Phil Minton "Apples of Gomorrah" cd on GroB, even if it is some evident trying laboratory like , a bit........
So if you put Butcher with a systematic player like Graewe, it will not catch your attention like the others. I got the same feeling with his duo with Paal Nilsson Love on Clean Feed.
So Butcher looks not full of passion like say Doneda , seems to be distant a bit analytical , but his asset is that he doesn't search the company of musical partners who are in the same state of mind...... By example John loves Lol Coxhill a lot and you can't imagine more different personnalities. So all this conversation about his mathematical state of mind and Butcher's emotionality is hors du sujet.

"Tempestuous", the new recording (and third) by Butcher-Charles-Dörner is beautiful (on Another Timbre) ; about Butcher & Minton, well, check also what Phil does with Daunik Lazro on their "Alive at Sonorités" (on Emouvance) : another dimension ! The brand new duo of Minton & Agnel ("Tasting" on Another Timbre) is one of my favourite : I prefer Minton with this "extended piano" than with Veryan Weston.

Better start calling you Double Trouble, Jean-M, if you're going to post everything twice!

Whoa, what's this Minton / Agnel disc? Who's released that? I remember an astounding concert they gave here in Paris a while back, would love to hear that

"TASTING" : Agnel & Minton, Another Timbre at02
www.anothertimbre.com/
Wonderful catalogue !
Agnel's website : http://sophieagnel.free.fr/

Thanks for this Cyprien - I can also recommend the wonderful Frank Denyer solo shakuhachi disc on the same label, which I knew before it was released. Time for another annoying plug for the old place
http://www.paristransatlantic.com/magazine/interviews/denyer.html

Butcher is a fantastic player, and the accusation of 'coldness' is way off the mark. However I do find his solo work less engaging than some of his small-group improvising. 'The Geometry of Sentiment' has some excellent and fascinating playing, but I admire it more than loving it. (This is probably true for me with a fair percentage of solo discs by various improvisers. Is it just me, or do others find this too?)

There is something about small-group playing which often makes it more immediately engaging and - ironically - more intimate than a solo recording (I'm sure there are counter-examples, but as a general observation I think it's true) So Butcher's work in small ensembles is my favourite, especially groups he has worked with for some time (and yes, Cyprien, the new Contest of Pleasures disc on 'another timre' is a beautiful example, as was the old trio with Phil Durrant and John Russell)

Working with musicians he knows well, his extraordinary extended techniques never seem showy or clinical or competitive, and - as someone observed earlier - he has a great sense of structure which makes his work consistently interesting and able to stand up to repeat listenings. He's one of the very best.

"This is probably true for me with a fair percentage of solo discs by various improvisers. Is it just me, or do others find this too?"
"more intimate than a solo recording"

I couldn't disagree more. Solo recordings are what I enjoy listening to most of all - and they're certainly for me the most intimate. When I listen to a solo recording it feels as if I'm really hearing the player themselves with no other conflicting/distracting intentions.

group recordings can take a while to hook me, but solos have me from the get-go

I have always been a fan of "Light's View", I think it is a beautiful duo.
Butcher plays on the new Vario that I just got in the mail today.
The music is really incredible, Christmann is so under-rated.

Damon, is it the VARIO-41 or the 44 ?
Both are great records ! (+ handmade covers !)
V-41 (explico 14) is with Baltschun, Griener, Butcher, Christmann
V-44 (explico 15) with Butcher, Turner, Russell, Lehn, Schürch, Christmann
edition.explico.music.art@web.de

Marcus: "Working with musicians he knows well, his extraordinary extended techniques never seem showy or clinical or competitive, and - as someone observed earlier - he has a great sense of structure which makes his work consistently interesting and able to stand up to repeat listenings. He's one of the very best."

I couldn't agree more, Marcus.

Best wishes.

44 is the one I just got but both are incredible albums, Butcher is great on both.

"Butcher plays on the new Vario that I just got in the mail today.
The music is really incredible, Christmann is so under-rated."

I agree, Damon. Christmann has somehow become completely sidelined when he deserves to be really up there and well-known. His music is very powerful, and the way he has worked the whole Vario thing across three decades is really admirable.

I'm talking to him about doing a disc for 'another timbre', though we haven't decided who with yet. It'll probably be at least a year before it sees the light of day given general busy-ness and the need to earn a living in the meantime. So for now just enjoy Vario 44 and the other great discs he occasionally puts out.

speaking of another timbre could someone go into some more detail about that frank denyer cd. i have never heard of him but loved the players music from that such cd, and a cd of classic shakhachi pieces of his i have. which would this disk be closer to. how much and what kind of percussion is also included. i dont know any info would be great. And simon where and when would this and #5 be available

sws: "speaking of another timbre could someone go into some more detail about that frank denyer cd. i have never heard of him but loved the players music from that such cd, and a cd of classic shakhachi pieces of his i have. which would this disk be closer to. how much and what kind of percussion is also included. i dont know any info would be great. And simon where and when would this and #5 be available"

Hi sws,
Frank Denyer is an English-based composer who is often referred to as a maverick, because he doesn't fit into any school. He's always been very interested in music from other cultures, and spent many years working & studying abroad. Over time he's built up a unique body of work, often using unconventional instruments & creating unprecedented soundworlds. You would get a sense of his work from his website (www.frankdenyer.com), and there's a very good interview with him on the Paristransatlantic website that Dan Warburton (the interviewer) references above.

In the early 70's Denyer met the virtuosi shakuhachi player Yoshikazu Iwamoto at a university in the States where they were both based for a while, and they started playing music together (Denyer on koto, which he'd taught himself). For the next 30 years the two continued to collaborate, and Denyer built up a body of works for shakuhachi of which four are on the 'another timbre' cd.

The first three pieces date from the late 70's/early 80's and are relatively short (less than 10 minutes each). On two of these the shakuhachi is accompanied in parts by simple percussion (castanets & bass drum on one track, and a variety of unusual instruments on the other - bamboo slit drums, modified steel plates, sandpaper blocks, struck stones, a gourd rattle etc), but they are primarily shakuhachi pieces with some accompaniment.

The last piece on the disc dates from 1997 and is a monumental solo shakuhachio piece lasting 45 minutes, and in it Denyer stretches the already steep technical demands he had made of Iwamoto in the earlier works. It is, I think, an extraordinary piece of music.

The recordings are all relatively old because a few years after recording the last piece Iwamoto disappeared, making it clear that he wanted no-one to look for him, neither family, colleagues nor friends. He hasn't been seen since, which is a great loss. Iwamoto combined performances of traditional classical Japanese music with a commitment to contemporary music, and made an excellent disc with Eddie Prevost & John Tilbury, which is available on the Matchless label, called 'The Issue at Hand'.

Denyer continues to compose (there are great discs currently available on the Mode, Tzadik & Etcetera labels), as well as performing as pianist with the Amsterdam-based Barton Workshop. He was an early champion of the works of Feldman & Scelsi before they became widely known, and there are several good discs by The Barton Workshop featuring music by Cage, Feldman, Christian Wolff and James Tenney.

As to the fifth 'another timbre' disc (Angharad Davies and Tisha Mukarji), I'm delivering it to the manufacturer on Tuesday next week, so it should be ready a couple of weeks after that.

Thanks for your interest.

thanks simon, interesting info. i know all about the issue at hand disk as it is one of my favorite handfulls of music in any genre. im excited to pick up this when i have some spare coin.

This is an excellent review, Derek. I just heard Butcher in concert for the first time a couple of days back (with Torsten Muller and Dylan van der Schyff) and was floored. His soprano saxophone playing is phenomenal. On occasion I closed my eyes to listen and it didn't sound anything at all like a soprano playing. On several occasions it sounded like he was playing two or three saxes simultaneously. Absolutely remarkable. And it was quite compelling musically, plenty of "juice" if you know what I mean.

Much appreciated, Bill. And I know what you mean about "juice", Butcher's playing is fortified w/ a full day's supply of musical vitamins & minerals. Really nice guy to talk to in person. There are lots of great recordings to explore & I hope you'll report back as you dig through them.

it appears that the two electronic/feedback pieces come from the concert available here: http://www.l-m-c.org.uk/audio/candid.html

if you want to hear it unedited

I wouldn't want the availability of this material on the internet to discourage anyone from buying the disc, though, but I think that particular can of worms has been opened so many ways for so long that one more link won't hurt. Besides, it's just those two electronic pieces.