I'm sure Drake isn't overpowering or heavy-handed; he never is. His snare rolls sound like running water. Hooker, he ain't. I also don't think of him as fatigable or disingenuous or prone to overcrowding or any of that stuff.

My concern with him is that, in free jazz contexts anyways, he's sometimes too light-handed, smooth, and over-sophisticated.

Actually, now that I think of it, that's kind of my take on Schweitzer too.

Looks like we’re on the same page, Walt, at least in terms of your first paragraph. I’m with you on Drake never being the overpowering sort, but that’s not to say that he lacks power. Actually, I think he’s one of the more “powerful” drummers around, esp. in person where one can witness the amount of energy he channels through his kit first hand. I’ve seen him in a dozen different contexts and each time, he’s been beaded in sweat within ten minutes of starting a set. But he brings a grace and precision along with the power that makes him an excellent countermand to the stereotype of the free jazz basher. A lot of free jazz could benefit from his sort of “over-sophistication” IMO. And I’d agree too about Schweizer being similar in temperament/approach, that’s a big reason why the two of them work so well together here.

By “Hooker” do you mean William Hooker? I’ve enjoyed some of his stuff (mainly the Silkheart duet w/ Billy Bang), but I don’t think he’s much of a drummer in more challenging improvised settings, certainly not in Drake’s league.

Yes, that Hooker. He's a banger, a very different style from Drake's. People see Hamid, how big he is, and how imposing, and they think he'll play a certain way....but he doesn't. He's smooth. I've seen him, I think four times, and have never thought him a particularly powerful drummer, for all his size (and sweat). He's a finesse guy.

Again, I hear what you're saying, but I don't see power and finesse as mutually exclusive qualities. Hamid's got both, not to mention an incredible sense of time and touch. I've heard him tear the roof off behind his kit in the company of guys like Brötzmann and Tsahar w/ taste & tact intact.

I do recall Drake clunking around something awful on those weird Monk tunes on Misha's Two Days in Chicago with KVDM puffing along gamely. But otherwise, yes, he's a seriously groovy free jazz drummer.

William Hooker is bloody awful.

And they accuse me of making controversial remarks.. would care to be a bit more, umm, specific, Nate, old chum? Which Hooker albums don't you like then? I don't have all his stuff by any means, and I'm not a great fan of the KFW releases (very inconsistent label anyway, not unlike Victo) but I did enjoy the Oasis Of Whispers disc with Glen Hall and Lee Ranaldo, and some of those early Silkheart blowouts are fun. Comparing him to Drake though is a bit loaded: Hamid's probably going to win hands down on all things technical, but for sheer energy I think WH still has something to offer.

Well, Glen Hall & Lee Ranaldo are awful, too. (Try asking our other occasional Toronto PT contributor about him & you'll get an earful :) ........)

Don't have any of Hooker's stuff anymore.... I did have a review copy of that Hall/Ranaldo one you mention, & also at one point had the album with duos with E. Sharp & Thurston Moore, which I remember a little better. In general, just formless energy-music, fine if you like that, but there are lots of more exciting drummers in that mode out there (e.g. Corsano) who bring more musicality & ideas to the table.

for sheer energy I think WH still has something to offer.

Why thank you, mate!!

Haha, didn't spot that, good one Walt (well you can't say I haven't tried to do my bit and promote Screwdriver!)..
We'll continue this scrap in private, Nate!

"William Hooker is bloody awful."
"Well, Glen Hall & Lee Ranaldo are awful, too"

Is it really necessary to use such harsh and dismissive words? You are after all a "writer". Can't you find a better way to express your ideas? Dan and Walter wrote critical things here too, but their words aren't insulting.
Bloody awful is an unnecessary insult. Hooker, Hall & Lee aren't even part of the article. Why use this thread to insult them?

Every time a bell rings, that means an angel's earned his wings.

Nate, that's a clever quip, but Joe's questions are good ones, not to mention respectfully posed. How about answering them?

Because I'm not in the habit of supplying rope to hangmen.

Zing! Good one. Funny thing is you've earned something of a reputation as a hangin' judge yourself.

Goddamn, finally things are getting interesting again here - the Joe-man is back! (reference to Big Black's "Bazooka Joe")...

I'm with him - that's pretty dismissive in a short-shrift kinda way. For me as a listener I find Hooker hit and miss, but some of his better work is mighty strong. Among the recordings I like are "Firmament Fury" (which features some very fine non-Borbeto moments from my compadre Donald Miller), a couple of the Knit ones with Lee Ranaldo (one with Zeena-P, title escapes me), and a really nice one on Cadence "The Color Circle," which features some great playing from Roy Campbell and mysterious/under-recorded tenorist Booker-T. The Cadence one makes the best case for Hooker's drumming, as the trumpet/tenor/drums lineup gives him ample room to provide bottom end with the kickdrum and toms.

On some of the louder sessions that are less successful I find he tends toward a kind of undynamic bash + cymbal wash (I was disappointed with the one w/Glenn Spearman and DJ Olive, for example). I've only seen him live once, and that was at a Vision Fest gig some years ago with Lewis Barnes and Jesse Henry, that was very enjoyable and I was kinda wishing I could be in Jesse's shoes wailing some guit', which I'd say is a compliment to the music - it made the listener want to be all up in there, as it were.

So that's my two cents. Hamid - totally different. Seen him play tons of times and hold him in high regard. Some settings/collaborators are better for him than others (of course), but when it's all rolling strong he's one of the best drummers on the planet.

I haven't heard Glen Hall, but I generally really like Lee Ranaldo's guitar work both with and without SY.

Joe - do you know anything current about this Booker-T guy? Is he still playing?

Hate to jump in, but I've not found Hall's, Hooker's or Ranaldo's work anywhere close to being "awful". Maybe not insulting, but unless a reason is given for a strong stance such as this one, I find some explanation should be provided first before uttering stuff like this.

I heard Hooker at Tonic on Monday, he was leading a pretty tight group doing compositions, not much bashing. I have played with him a few times and it wasn't all bashing. I once played an acoustic Jazz gig with HIm and Marco Eneidi, his time and dynamics were great. My point is that people generally have a wider range than a few gigs and cds can show.

I heard Hooker at Tonic on Monday, he was leading a pretty tight group doing compositions, not much bashing. I have played with him a few times and it wasn't all bashing. I once played an acoustic Jazz gig with HIm and Marco Eneidi, his time and dynamics were great. My point is that people generally have a wider range than a few gigs and cds can show.

I too like that recording with Zeena P. (and I like Hooker's playing on it). For me, btw, "basher" isn't a dirty word when it comes to drummers. Hooker may not be my favorite drummer in the universe, but I think he's just fine. (Not that my liking this or that drummer is much evidence of quality one way or the other--My tastes are probably more eccentric--and less knowledge-based--in this area than they are with respect to any other instrument.)

I didn't mean that I think of Hooker as a "basher" all the time, just on some of the less successful sessions that I've heard. On "Colour Circle" and "Firmament Fury," just to name two, his playing is quite dynamic and varied.

Damon makes a good point about musicians often having range that is far beyond what one hears in one recording or concert. You could check out a dozen different Tetuzi Akiyama discs or concerts and get completely different music on each one, to pick a dramatic example. I've never been into that attitude that once you've seen a musician you "get it" and don't need to see them again. With the better artists you'll get a different part of the story each time.

I just listened through this, and I found no problems with the piano/tenor relationships. I though the duos with with drums were the most typical ( but not bad) and that the most interesting music is when they play trio. Irene and Fred play well together, it sounded like both responded well to the other and found a way to make their strong languages meet.

I also love what Jim Baker does with Fred's lines on Birdhouse.
It makes me wish I still had the trio Fred and Hamid did with Marilyn Crispel to compare.

There is a kind of unspoken rule by both musicians and listeners that piano is law, and that one must "obey" the harmony and tuning set forth by a pianist even in so-called improvised music.
As much as I love the piano, I prefer a more equal and balanced idea than that.
It has kind of an ugly cover for an Intakt cd, though...

I've heard quite a few Hookers that I wouldn't care to listen to a second time, but I thought the trio with Hall and Ranaldo was pretty fantastic. Likewise, the trio with Spearman and DJ Olive.

So, although I agree with Nate Dorward's reviews about 95% of the time, I'd have to take issue with that "bloody awful". (However, I MIGHT be tempted to apply that term to, say, Stanko's "Soul of Things"...)

"Likewise, the trio with Spearman and DJ Olive."

- I set up that gig, Speaman broke a plastic reed, it was split and covered in blood. He was a great guy, I miss him.
I played in a weird quartet with Gino Robair, Jenny Scheinman and Chadbourne in the first set.
I like the Hooker cd with Marclay and Ranaldo.

I think my not liking the Hooker trio disc with Spearman and Olive could be the heavy reverb on Glenn's tenor on the recording. Not sure if that was the work of the soundman or added later (more likely the soundman), but it sounded icky to me... Especially as I love Glenn's tone and playing.

Met and chatted with him a few times and he was indeed a lovely guy. Much-missed with good reason. I can only imagine what it's like for those who really knew him well. He must have been quite a presence in the Bay Area in those last years.

As to the piano thing, it's an interesting topic. In more free-improvised settings the piano's (or pianist's) propensity for imposing tonality can really pitch the relationship between the instruments unequally, as Damon says. The Schlippenbach Trio seems really exceptional in this regard, how they've mostly been able to avoid that and maintain a real sense of equality of voices and collective flow, as opposed to one musicians steering the others. Could have something to do with Alex's ability & knowledge in the area of 12-tone music and/or his ability to steer clear of obvious tonality while still building some clear architecture that boosts Evan's playing. Also those three are such amazing listeners. I've still got the Fred/Marilyn/Hamid cd on Okka, but don't often listen to it....the busted piano key is occasionally distracting...but there's some fine music on it. Of course one of the gold standards of the piano/saxophone/drums trio would be Cecil Taylor's "Akisakila" - that one burns...

As I've said before, some pianists are, for good or ill, "bossier" than others. Among the bossiest, IMHO are Taylor, Tippett, Melford, Crispell, Courvoisier, Graewe, Bergman, and Schweizer. The Feldman emulators seem to me to be generally less pushy, partly, of course, because they play fewer notes and leave more space.

Amazing album! Don't miss it!