Nice review, Derek. I think the Taylor/Lyons/Silva/Cyrille comparison is a good point of reference, but I'd like to stress that there's a unique group sound at play here. For one thing, I don't know of any other drummer that plays with the dynamic scope and orchestral sense that Luther Gray has. Maybe Louis Moholo-Moholo, though he tends to keep it within a certain compartment of his playing. Gray seems to fire up Lantner's highly calibrated full-keyboard sense of balance and tension, which is one of his greatest assets. I don't know of another pianist that plays all the ranges of the keyboard against each other with as acute a sense of their opposing weights. And Joe Morris sounds very attuned to Gray, and knows how to generate torque off his playing. That Allan Chase can work his contribution into the group sound -- which is established without him on "Blue Yonder" -- adding to it without upsetting its basic character, is pretty remarkable. I love the sound on this disc too -- which brings me back to your 60s Taylor reference -- it reminds me sonically of "Student Studies", though cleaner and drier.

Good points, both of you. I thought of Moholo too. One listen in, enjoying this very much - but one listen ain't enough! AND I got sidetracked last night by Bill Dixon - not the Bags thread, but the In Italy Vol 1 which I hadn't heard for ages and which sent me to bed an hour and a half later than planned. Any comments on the cover art, anyone? (I mean the Lantner disc, not the Dixon)

The only Skycap releases I'm familiar with are the two Lantners, but both have design by Holger Drees. Elegant and enigmatic work. He makes, in particular, very nice, balanced design on the two canvases of CD package design that most don't handle well: the back panel of the jewel case, and the CD itself. What do you think of it, Dan?

I'm surprised to hear about "density" and Cecil Taylor in a discussion of Lantner's playing. I haven't heard this disc and the remarks may be perfectly apt, but they're surprising nonetheless. On more than one occasion Steve has decried to me the "too many notes" approach to pianism. Once he seemed (and I certainly was) particularly annoyed at a Graewe gig we both attended. Anyhow, I've always thought of Steve as a quality-trumps-quantity type player.

I'm married to an architect so I should be careful here :) No, the design is fine by me but reminds me vaguely of that Mattin Klaus Filip album on Grob, and a few other austere improv outings on CS. Seems to be curiously at odds with the music.. but I haven't listened to it more than once so jury's still out!

Walto, it's true that Lantner's playing is very different from Taylor's. The aspect that they share, to my thinking, is that they're both fully pianistic in their approach, i.e. they both take advantage of the instrument's full range, and its orchestral scope. Both sound as if they're improvising orchestral reductions. There's some common language too -- whether Steve got some of it from Cecil or whether they're both drawing from 20th Century piano literature, or whatever combination, I don't know. But yes, very different players.

Thanks for the props, James. My Taylor comparison wasn’t meant to question Steve’s originality, it’s just that unlike his past albums, I think the similarities are more prominent here. And as I mentioned above, I think the cover art works as a decent corollary to the music: clean-lined structures with clearly defined parameters (ie. the pitch sets Steve makes use of in each piece). I hadn’t thought of Moholo Moholo in terms of Gray, but that’s a great comparison too.

Dan, those In Italy discs are killers, gotta go dig them out. Someone needs to replace Ron Wynn’s half-assed analysis of both over at AMG. My vote’s for Brian O. righting the wrong.

I’m a bit bummed that Cliff turned off the Comment option on his two new reviews, though I understand his reasons. I’ve got some fat to chew about the Jamal and am looking forward to sitting down with the V5.

I would like to chime in here. Firstly, thank you Derek for the nice write-up of the disk. Your noticing of a sound more closely associated with Cecil is no accident. Over the past several years it has been my intention to embrace his contributions to the piano, once I felt I had reached the approriate point in my own playing. As my approach to music is catholic in nature, it was only a matter of time for this to happen.

I would like to respond to Walter's comment. I remember the Georg Graewe concert well (Sept. 10, 2001), but I do not in any way recall being "annoyed" by his playing. It was my first opportunity to hear him, and I was very impressed. He was doing a lot of things musically that I was trying to do, and as a result, I picked up a couple of his disks.

As a rule I don't disparage other musicians, especially highly accomplished ones such as Graewe for the primary reason that it's an ignorant thing to do. Secondly, I don't do it because I wouldn't want someone making the inappropriate choice of repeating what would have been a private conversation to unkown others.

Lastly, I don't consider quality/quality to be an either/or.

Thanks for swinging by, Steve, & again for sending the disc. Sorry for the lapse in informing you formally about the review.

"As a rule I don't disparage other musicians, especially highly accomplished ones such as Graewe for the primary reason that it's an ignorant thing to do. Secondly, I don't do it because I wouldn't want someone making the inappropriate choice of repeating what would have been a private conversation to unkown others."

Sorry if I betrayed a confidence, Steve, but of course the good thing is that if one doesn't ever (ignorantly no doubt) disparage accomplished musician in conversation or otherwise, I suppose there's no danger of anybody (however inappropriately) repeating anything other than accolades.

In any case, let me attempt to correct my former post by suggesting that perhaps only I was (ignorantly) annoyed that night and that Steve simply was kind enough not to correct me. Because, as one can see above, he's nice that way and wouldn't have disparage the accomplished.

Anyhow, Gratkowski was great that night, wasn't he? As I recall, however, perhaps not sharing your niceness, even HE seemed to be annoyed (ignorantly or not) when Graewe would simply NOT STOP PLAYING A ZILLION NOTES EVEN FOR A SECOND. And, in my humble opinion, (& of course I could be wrong) YOU would not have played so many notes and the concert would have been better as a result. And I say this as a guy who adores several Graewe recordings.

Cheers.

Walter, I have no illusions of being a particularly nice person. The best I can aspire to is polite.
I agree with you, that a world in which accolades are the only acceptable form of criticism would not be an honest one. To me, as a musician, the only valid criticism of a colleague is to address whether or not the music's intentions are successfully realized. The reason I consider it ignorant to openly disparage a musician is that it exposes ones presumption to know what the musician's intentions are.
I have a clearly formed view of what my music should sound like, and I express that through my attempts. I try not to confuse my personal aesthetic with those of others, and I try not to presume that they are one and the same.
And so there's no confusion, any statement I make concerning how I try to behave is not intended to contrast how I perceive that you do.
I respect your right to speak critically of other's music (mine included). I choose not to.

Probably a wise decision, given the mud wrestling over on the other thread, Steve. But since you're here, what's YOUR take on the cover art?!
*
Yes Derek well as Cliff has (as he usually does) switched off the comment function, why not hijack this thread and chew that fat about the Khan Jamal? What did you want to say about it? I think it's sensational!

I guess I disagree with Steve that one can never tell what somebody else is aiming for. I mean, I suppose you can't be absolutely sure, but there's not much you can be absolutely sure of in this world. (I think people generally worry too much about being absoultely sure of things, but that's a matter for another time and place.) In any event, it's certainly not the case that performers always do precisely what they wanted to do when they play--whether for themselves in their basements or for others at a gig, and I don't see why it should thought to be impossible for others to recognize this. I know I've played gigs where I've thought I've sucked, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the more astute listeners in the audience agreed with that assessment (though one can always hope for actual ignorance here). Making assessments, even disparaging ones, is what listeners do, and even polite, respectful listeners should be encouraged to do so, and not only if they really aren't ignoramuses with no conception whatever at what is being aimed for by the mighty musicians. Because ignoramuses are entitled to the same rights as the wise (and because we want them at our gigs too).

Anyhow, we obviously disagree about this. I will continue to side with what I take to have been Gratkowski's view that Graewe had an ADD night, and I will continue to believe that you'd have done a better job than he did. And I don't think this is necessarily either impolite, inappropriate or ignorant on my part (though, God knows, I've been all three often enough). What expression of one's response to a gig is, is a simple matter of combining listening, being unafraid to have an opinion about what you heard, and being willing to share this with others. (Something I won't do for mags any more, admittedly.) Without such reactions (unless there comes to be born a whole new generation of quiet but passionate love zombies), while there would be additional politeness in the universe, I wouldn't expect there to be too many gigs in the world.

I’m with you on the Jamal, Dan. The first spin had me crinkling my brows a bit, but now well on to my 10th I think it’s a complete gas, esp. the Bugs Hunter-style echo & the heavy percussion emphasis. It’s also great to hear Monette Sudler in this setting as her Steeplechase albums are largely out of a different bag. One of the sleeper reissues of the year, for sure, and Michael Ehlers deserves colossal props for bringing it back into circulation.

Don't want to belabor this, but I did want to make one final point about politeness, since that's become a focus here apparently.

Rule 9: When somebody compliments you or your work, the polite thing to do is say "Thank You" before moving on to other matters (blushing is optional).

It seems like several musicians hanging in this neighborhood aren't familiar with this basic tenet, but, perhaps surprisingly, even my 7-year-old has known it well for a couple of years now.

Politemess Alert:

The polite thing is to not gossip about private comments to make your pathetic point Walte Horn. That is your real name isn't it?

I heard you got fired from Cadence. That's really pathetic. Oh well, there's always the review part of Amazon.com. Loser.

Jesus.

I heard you got fired from Cadence.

You heard that, and are reporting it here?!!?! But that would be...(gasp)...gossip!

False too, but you obviously don't care about that kind of stuff. Just gossip, insult, threaten, insult. (Guess this practice is bound to make you something of an expert on politeness.)

Look, I don't subscribe to your 11th commandment. I think musicians should be able to take a little criticism, just like everybody else. I don't think we've got to assume they're ALL big babies. Sometimes I like Graewe, sometimes not. Sometimes I like what you play, then you try bass. Live with it.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, I once wrote some glowing-with-praise liner notes for Steve Lantner (for no compensation natch), and I've probably sold a few records for you along the way. I'm trying to remember what either of you has ever done for me. Oh yeah, I remember--nothing.

So take your nonsensical lectures and stuff 'em.

"Look, I don't subscribe to your 11th commandment. I think musicians should be able to take a little criticism, just like everybody else. I don't think we've got to assume they're ALL big babies. Sometimes I like Graewe, sometimes not. Sometimes I like what you play, then you try bass. Live with it."

Yeah we know. You told us off the same way a millions times already. We know.

You don't like gossip? Funny

"Actually, if I'm not mistaken, I once wrote some glowing-with-praise liner notes for Steve Lantner (for no compensation natch), and I've probably sold a few records for you along the way."

This would probably be "Reaching". A good disc.

Walt, take a break. If afterwards, you still want to duke it out with Joe &/or Steve, please do so via personal correspondence. I'm tired of reading this stuff & would rather not be privy to it anymore.

Just one more thing Walt:

I do appreciate that you have liked some of my music and that you wrote about it. Remember though that for days when I first logged on here you said some pretty harsh things to me without identifying yourself as Walter Horn. The line was almost exactly the same then as now, but I did not know it was you until I asked. So our bad interaction might have been avoided and you might have received the thanks you want and I guess deserve if you did not comment and criticize me using the name Walto.

Anyway I've made every point I need to to disagree with your opinion of my attitude and at this point we are both repeating ourselves and getting nothing out of it.

Thanks for supporting my music. Sorry for what I said here about you. I mean that.

"Look, I don't subscribe to your 11th commandment. I think musicians should be able to take a little criticism, just like everybody else."

- Musicians do take it. I think if nothing else bagatellen proves that many "writers" have a tougher time with when it is their turn.

"mmmmgggmmmppppffff"

[noises seeping through Derek's gag]

I'll just add this, hoping not to fan any flames.

Walter, I do appreciate the compliments you made concerning my music. My second posting intended to say as much, but it inadvertently got cut out when I posted it. And I certainly did appreciate the great liner notes you wrote for my first CD.
And if push came to shove, yes I would agree that it is acceptable for a musician to critize the work of others. There's nothing wrong with challenging piers to justify their work. I was not calling you ignorant. I was expressing the caution that I practice before opening my mouth to say something negative.

The only problem I had was that you attributed an opinion to me that I don't believe I had.
No hard feelings I hope.

No problem. Let's jam sometime. Bring Joe.

Walto, watch your kneecaps if he comes ...

Damon - you think this site proves that writers have a tougher time handling criticism than musicians? Hardly. Writers are used to articulate people (other writers) actually editing and critiquing their work. Improvising musicians are simply not accustomed to articulate people (who also love the music) critiquing their work.

Anyway, I'm ashamed that I even repsonded to your openly flamebaiting statement - there is no need to heirarchize artists based on their medium.

No results found for heirarchize.

Did you mean hierarchize?

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Devaluating ducats, enough already! I’m going to have a confab with Al & Emory and see if we can clean out a special space on these pages so that anyone who wants to scrap, carp, nitpick, shoot rubber bands, toss pies, or light firecrackers has a place to go & do their thing in peace & quiet beyond the reach of the meddling folks that want to talk about music, film, comic books, licorice, beer & whatever else crops up on the main page. I think there’s an abandoned broom closet down in the basement wing of Bags HQ that would be perfect for the purpose. Stay tuned.

If you keep putting the " " around writers Damon I'm going to have start calling you a "bassist".