forgive my question :

CIMP like Creative Improvised Music Projects ?

I guess it's not the Conservatoire international de musique de Paris and least of all Commission Internationale de Microflore du Paléozoique ...

je ne pense pas non

n

CIMP? I thought it stood for "Create Inaudible Music Perfectly". If anyone can hear more than 10% of what was played on the bass on their first ever release, "The Redwood Sessions" by the Evan Parker / Barry Guy / Paul Lytton trio, he's a better man than me. But we heard the room wonderfully. Shame we did not hear the instruments.

oh dear

"But we heard the room wonderfully. Shame we did not hear the instruments. "

i guess that s what is called economic coherence ....
or something around that kinda of reality
THOSE THINGS HAPPENS

Best
n

Yes, Noel. There are some very non-musical spirits in that "Spirit Room".

I think it's about time CIMP coughed up a few bucks and started renting an actual studio instead of recording everything in a living room. Or they could use a local church or something. (Maybe that's too far from a kitchen?)For all anybody knows, there could be some excellent music buried on that label.

For all anybody knows, there could be some excellent music buried on that label.

I’d gladly testify to the veracity of second half of that statement. There’s a metric ton of great music on CIMP and judging the entire catalog on the follies of their first release recorded over a decade ago hardly seems fair. I’ve heard roughly three-quarters of their 245-odd discs to date and while there are some that are sonically dubious, there are plenty of others that I think sound just fine. It’s mostly a matter of getting acclimatized to the admittedly spartan set-up. That, and a good pair of ear goggles, and I don’t usually have a problem. Several in the last couple of batches have even sounded great on my car stereo & that’s something that can’t be said for many ‘more traditionally’ recorded improv discs. The challenge lies in the musicians’ abilities to thrive in such strenuous/liberating (depending on how you look at it) surroundings and most possess the talent to do so.

And there’s a certain arcadian charm to the Spirit Room. It’s interesting to compare the room’s acoustics during the various seasons that CIMP records. With the winter sessions, you can sometimes here the crackle/pop of the fireplace or the thunder/rain of a storm slipping in through an open window. In the summer, the oppressive heat and humidity become active agents in the audio and additional challenges to musicians & engineer. Similar differentials exist at the Canton, NY recital hall they use for piano-present sessions, though the past few years they’ve only been recording there during the summer. I also like Bob Rusch’s approach to liners, giving his candid perspective on the session, according space for artists’ notes, and wrapping with an essay from engineer Marc Rusch (though Marc’s sections do have a tendency to retread familiar ground when it comes to recording foibles & their solutions).

Well, we've had this disagreement before. (I take it that, unlike Bob Rusch, you can get that when I criticize this living room as a space, I'm not attacking Mark R's recording skills.) While I've doubtless heard many fewer CIMPs than you have over the years, IMHO, there's not a single one that wouldn't have benefitted (in my humble ears) from a less dry environment. It's not the fireplace crackles I mind, it's the "sound sucking."

Obviously, to each his own.

Walt, as my lead paragraph above hopefully posits, I’m with on the general austerity of the space. I was taking issue with the blanket statement that the sound on CIMPs suck. Just not true to my ears. There’s plenty of music that surmounts the “dryness” in spades. For starters, I’d refer you to pretty much any CIMP recording w/ Adam Lane on it. That guy makes the persnickety parameters of the Spirit Room work to his advantage every time. But as you wrote, to each his/her own.

The Lane discs are great, & yes they sound good (a full, rich bass sound)--though still a very dry acoustic: I wouldn't call it an "advantage" exactly. It's just the sound of the room.

Hey Derek, isn't it time to change the copyright notice on Bags? It's stuck on 2005!

"It's just the sound of the room."

I’d actually take that a bit further and say it’s just the sound of Lane IN the room. The space has a tendency to swallow strings, but Lane has tamed it and actually turned it to his favor. Compare his full, rich sound to that of certain other bassists on other Spirit Room dates, not to mention his own non-CIMP sessions, and there’s a positive difference to be heard IMO. Some players have to resort to ample amplification to achieve comparable prominence.

Guy actually faired better than most bass players. You can actually hear Wilbur morris on the Brötzmann cd, Paul Rogers on the two he is on, Dresser on the duo with Ray anderson and Kowald who could cut through anything.
That is not much considering the size of the catalog.

Yeah, I forgot Adam. Him and Geroge Cremaschi both came out ok. They both have their amplifaction really together, since they sound great through the amp they can just crank it up until it gets heard - not a reccomended "studio" technique!

The problem seems, to me, to be simple. Put one's ear up against any instrument, (especially the double-bass), have someone play a note on it, and then ask "Why doesn't the recording sound precisely the same?". The can of worms then opens ...

Mike Bisio gets a strong sound on most of the dates he’s on. That anecdote about him playing so hard that his bridge imploded is as telling about the demanding acoustic as anything else. Ken Filiano usually fares well too.

Graham, I'll venture an answer to your question accepting that I'm probably just whistling Dixie. As I understand it, CIMP isn't about precision per se. It's about reproducing what a band sounds like playing together in the space in real time with minimal engineering interference. That's why the "ear against the instrument" argument doesn't necessarily apply. It's also why when there's a particularly forceful drummer in the mix or its an inordinately humid day, strings tend to get submerged.

Fair enough Derek. That's the reason, I suppose, that we have to endure so many awful recordings.

P.S.

Where are you now Michael Gerzon?

As I understand it, CIMP isn't about precision per se. It's about reproducing what a band sounds like playing together in the space in real time with minimal engineering interference.

As I've said many times, I have no particular beef with that approach, and no real complaint with the CIMP execution of it. The problem is simply that if it's carried out in a room that is a bad room for music (which I believe this living room is)....well, figure it out.

Read my review of Sophie Dunér's CIMP CD - which to me is a catastrophe:

http://home.swipnet.se/sonoloco24/duner/spain.html

It was in fact Keith Jarrett, not me, who said "Why doesn't a note on the piano sound like what I hear on the recordings?". Or words to that effect ...

I would do a CIMP session if it was offered, I'd use a transparent group and also know that I have decent size discography that documents my sound pretty well already. I think our ears can sort of "fill in the blanks" when one of our favorites makes a CIMP cd.
It can be a shame when a band goes in unaware or makes a first cd there. Still, they seem to have made some improvments. The Dunmall/Rogers/Norton trios actually sound pretty good all around, same with Lane's quartet with Tchicai, Smoker and Altuschl.

Damon, I just saw you played on the Grizzly Man sessions, that must have been pretty cool.

"Damon, I just saw you played on the Grizzly Man sessions, that must have been pretty cool."

- Very cool, thanks to Kaiser. The best part was just hanging out with Herzog and playing with him sitting with us the whole time.
Except for the "bear fight" (which was actually my idea, he was not going to have music there, I just said "hey I want to play for the bear fight" so they brought out a monitor, a few seconds actually made it in) we played to him and not the film. He would talk about what he wanted and he would comment after each take.
He was such a great man and so focused on his work. I thought we would just record something and send it off and never meet him but he was with us the whole time.
I also came away with a heavy respect for O'Rouke who can manage pretty much any musical task.

re: CIMP recordings . . . you just have to blast the fuck out of them on your stereo or better, run them through about 12 dB of hard limiting and viola - you've got audible music!

i grew up on FM radio. as far as i'm concerned, compression IS the way music sounds.

ww

Damon:

Switching subjects ... have you considered recording a version of Xenakis' "Theraps"?

There are so few versions of it on record ...

"Damon:

Switching subjects ... have you considered recording a version of Xenakis' "Theraps"?

There are so few versions of it on record ..."

- I own the score that is about as close as I will get. I have enough trouble managing half-steps (semi-tones) "Theraps" has 8th tones in glissando.
There is a great recording by the late Norweigen virtuoso Bjørn Ianke on "The Contemporary Double Bass Vol. 3".
He was one of the very best contemporary solists. All three Volumes are worth tracking down.
To be honest I just practice to old stuff at home - I was working on a Henze solo last night but that is rare for me, more often I butcher the Bach suites....
It is an interesting discussion - I like to study the contemporary scores, and I own many of them, but I just prefer what the improvisors do in terms of the modern solo music. That Xenakais Solo is good, but I'd rather hear Barry Guy, Joelle, Barre Phillips, Mark Dresser or Kowald play solo. They just do the extended techniques better becasue it works better to have that intimate relationship.
Playing something by Bach or Vivaldi can really give you a stronger grounding in pitch relationships.
So I tend to work on that since my music is improvised and don't have to perform any of this stuff.

Damon: Understood. A thousand thanks for the reference to the recording of "Theraps" by Bjorn Ianke. I didn't know of it, I was only aware of the versions by John Eckhardt and Robert Black.