Talk about not being a home run, I had high hopes for the Adam Linson Disc in this batch which promised:
"his real time processing and sampling in a new approach to solo bass."

The electronics where so boring and could have been done with standard pedals or even just extended techniques and preparations. Through the whole cd I just want him to switch it off and play the bass. Motoharu Yoshizawa did ten times more with a stock pedal board -not mention Barry Guy with a couple of sticks and volume pedal.
His bass playing seems good though, hopefully he will get a cd out quick that can let us hear it.
I enjoyed the Takase disc way more.

Yeah, that Linson was a puzzler. Then again I tend to have an allergy to any electronics stuff that's heavy on the delay/loops--I don't want to hear every darn thing repeated over & over.

Not a big fan of the Takase either, though it's OK. "Song for Che" is lovely, though.

I have "strings" project coming up w/ clarinets instead of piano, so it a good listen for now. Ino is a beautiful bass player who is not on many available cds.
Again, the bass playing on the Linson cd was nice. I really liked his bass sounds.

Yes--the only other Ino I have is on the obscure Hiroaki Katayama disc Quatre, one of my wacked-out faves of recent years. I think Katayama plays with Takase sometimes too.

Any comments on Lisle Ellis's bass & electronics stuff? I saw him play in LA not too long ago, with Larry Ochs and I forget who else. He'd play a phrase, then lean over and do stuff to it on his laptop for a few minutes. It worked, but I would have liked to have heard some longer stretches of straight playing.

"Any comments on Lisle Ellis's bass & electronics stuff? I saw him play in LA not too long ago, with Larry Ochs and I forget who else. He'd play a phrase, then lean over and do stuff to it on his laptop for a few minutes. It worked, but I would have liked to have heard some longer stretches of straight playing."

I like what I have heard. Ken Filiano and George Cremaschi have been working similar angles, and I and have been pleasantly surprised by all of it. Because it's very musical and they have obviously worked it out. That's a credit to them. I hate when folks just start attaching electronic effects pedals to their set-up because...ya know...they can afford them.

As far as having liked to hear Lisle play more straight...of course his unprocessed bass playing is beautiful. But part of what makes Lisle who he is, is that he's not afraid to not give you what you want.

I am not very good at being subjective with Lisle - he is my teacher and I doubt I will be able to see/hear him another way, ever.
Still, he has any number of fine cds out where he plays the shit out of the bass. Lisle also seems to have specific ideas about electronics. On the basis of the Linson cd it sounds to me like his career as a software engineer and his career as an improvising double bassist are unrelated.
The cd is a decent listen just not the innovation it promised.
I don't want to come off as being down on him, I was genuinely excited to hear something new and exciting. Instead it was just a good cd.

Strange I just put the Linson cd on again and it is totally working for me. Strange how it can take a few tries....

Double-bass players? A humble opinion. To my ears, Barry Guy is simply a world apart. A class of his own. I know of no other bassist who approaches the instrument with such panache, musicality, imagination, tonal accuracy, speed and pure joy. Joy in the act of playing. "Fizzles" remains a viscerally thrilling listening experience, 15 years later. Likewise "Symmetries", 5 years later.

I'll take Dresser or Kent Carter on all those fronts.

Oh, and I love Guy, by the way. Excellent composer too.

I think it would be a problem without any of the three. They are three of my favorite musicians and they each brought something new to the table.
Kent Carter does not get close to enough credit. He is a real model for me in terms of balancing a clean, legit arco sounds with a huge pizzicatto sound. Total master. One of my favorite cds in "One time" with a Bailey and Stevens. He has a strange amplifed sound on that cd that works well somehow.
Guy laid down a whole new level of virutoso complexity that no other bass player has even approached.
I still believe part of the turn toward EAI/lowercase playing had partly to do with many musicians not wanting to confront
the challenges and technical demands of a post-Parker/Guy/Lytton world.
Obviously, much great music that I am a fan of has come out of that trend.

Enough cannot be said about Dresser's playing and innovations.
Anyone who does not have his latest solo cd "Unveil" is really missing out.
His discoveries are so vast and inclusive. The same concepts can facilitate complex multi-phonics, increased control of the upper partials and even the simplest shifts for "B" to "C" (although, no shift is simple on the double bass).
Dresser, like his teachers Bertram Turetzky and Franco Petracchi goes one futher than most in terms of the generosity of his ideas by notating thm and making them a vailable to rest of us.

Damon:

"Guy laid down a whole new level of virtuoso complexity that no other bass player has even approached."

That's exactly what I meant. And which is why (as a simple listener) I put my hand in my pocket and invited him here for a solo concert.

I should have mentioned Joelle Leandre too. I think her virtuosity puts her in the company of Guy, Dresser and Carter.

I agree with more or less all the above comments re. bassists (though of course Kowald, Kowald). And with regards to Guy in particular, it's also a delight just to watch the guy - a constant blur.

But I'm currently listening to the wonderful Pisa 1980 compilation on Pi, and I'm reminded of how good Altena can be.

Bassists. Mark Dresser, Kent Carter etc.? Vaguely 19th century players. "Fizzles" was late 20th century bass playing. "Symmetries" very early 21st century. It seems to me a lot of today's bass players just haven't woken up to what the instrument can be.

Bah. And now that I think of it Fell is also in Guy's league--though his playing is usually a bit old-fashioned for my taste (as is Guy's on occasion).

"I still believe part of the turn toward EAI/lowercase playing had partly to do with many musicians not wanting to confront
the challenges and technical demands of a post-Parker/Guy/Lytton world."

I don't think so, I think it had much more to do with many musicians being bored of that way of working after 25 or 30 years, and the emergence of the onkyo Tokyo crew also was a huge part of it. Parker/Guy/Lytton were around for a long time before any kind of "turn towards EAI/lowercase playing" happened.

"I don't think so, I think it had much more to do with many musicians being bored of that way of working after 25 or 30 years, and the emergence of the onkyo Tokyo crew also was a huge part of it. Parker/Guy/Lytton were around for a long time before any kind of "turn towards EAI/lowercase playing" happened."

- I think primarily you are right.. Still, the fact remains that no one has pushed that type of complex playing past Parker/Guy/Lytton- Mats was working towards it then he took that left turn at Chicago.....
Also, as much as I love Dafeldecker it is just a fact that it takes more time in the practice room to do what Guy does.
Of course there are other considerations that make what Dafeldecker does great.

Not to start it all again but

# 1 - The amount of players that were actually really involved before going "toward EAI Lowercase " in what you call "Parker Trio" way to improvise is i think really low if not quite anecdotic

# 2 - my question remains that if very clearly the turn has been made for many by being bored of such prior long time approaches and as a reaction against "Sweaty bollocks free jazz" why in return did it brought so quickly and strongly another Rule , Law and Frame
which is at least as Stuck as the one before became if not totally locked

n

Noel:

If it's totally locked, I'm confident Keith Rowe (and not many others) will find a way out of it.

Graham :

as much as i ve been really into the raise of the question when it all started i ve been really surprised by how quickly it got locked and actually a total paradox in many ways

as fo Keith he s been so much himself since always that i dont particularly see why would he need to find a way out for others

but let s see however

n

Noel, just like any kind of music, some artists are stuck in a rut, some aren't. maybe you're listening to the wrong ones?

Jon

it s funny how when it comes to a different opinion ( mine here ) on this whole ( and i know it s far from a single voice but many many various ) music movement every disagreement or critical opinion on what s going on has to be answered with this kind of answers ...i dont think i do listen to the wrong ones and others to the right ones, it s anyway
a rather small amount of albums at the end , and it doesnt take any very difficult research or effort to follow more or less ....

i really think we do talk about the same exact thing but we do not view it the same way
so please dont try to diminish that aspect

it s enough space for various opinions including rather critical ones i guess

Best
n

and of course we can end all that by simply saying this is "your"taste and not "mine"
but i guess that ll be pretty short and not quite interesting ...

n

sure, there's always room for various opinions, I just don't really agree with yours, which is why I posted. it's true that when an area of music makes such huge jumps in such a short period of time, it's easy to run out of space to innovate very quickly, and I think that's pretty obvious to anyone following this area closely.

but the purpose of my post is that while I do believe there are some individual musicians in this area in creative cul-de-sacs of their own devising, I don't agree that it's anywhere near as "stuck" or "locked" as first-generation Euro free improv had become by the mid-nineties. some records that quickly come to mind from the last year or so that point to potential new areas to explore, at least in my mind:

GOD-Anti-Sex/Anti-Wiretapping
English-self-titled
Stangl/Kurzmann-schnee_live
Rowe/Nakamura-between
Fagaschinski/Gal-Going Round In Serpentines
nmperign/Lescalleet-Love Me Two Times

Noel, how many of those six have you heard, just curious? I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just saying it's easy to make broad statements sometimes, and I think there's a fair amout of evidence to the contrary in this case.

I'm also personally very intrigued by the potential results of duos which have one Viennese musician and one musician from elsewhere. the bulk of my in-progress projects fit this formula, albeit somewhat coincidentally: Yoshida/Kurzmann, AVVA (Nakamura/Roisz), dieb13/ErikM, Fagaschinski/Stangl, Pita/Schmickler.

"and I think that's pretty obvious to anyone following this area closely."

sure but i used "Stuck" as opposed to the original idea to not-free-jazz-anymore-playallover the place ...

there s a serious paradox for me to change pretty radically directions , in reaction to what s been before, and bring another one which is at least has restrited as the previous one ( not in the same way but extremely drastic still )

i wasnt going further than that precise context
here in saying stuck, otherwise it s another personal taste stament

and i recognise in these areas some music being pretty achieved and not my taste at all and others just being very amateurish even in what they seem to want to achieve

but anyway
n

in simple words , if you change " fast, loads of notes" by " quiet, as less as possible" and both are a rule , i dont see any difference

the only thing i point out is the "no playing" of the end 90s has been far more dogmatic and strict than the end of 70 s euro improv ... at the same time ...

of course they are exceptions everywhere and if i listen to anything in whater area i d rather have exceptions

point made , i dont go any further than that
what i argue sometime is when i hear things and absolutely dont get people raving about
because the same i ve heard was extremely fragile undefined or even very beginning

therfore i wouldnt throw out everything else from before just cause the fashion has changed

nothing more just that, a certain balance sometime

"the only thing i point out is the "no playing" of the end 90s has been far more dogmatic and strict than the end of 70 s euro improv ... at the same time ..."

I'd probably agree here, but this is really only two people, Malfatti and Sugimoto (who came to it a few years after Radu). I thought this was what you meant initially, and I don't think it's a fair overarching statement to make, as it hardly represents an entire area of music, just one extreme end.

GOD-Anti-Sex/Anti-Wiretapping
English-self-titled
Stangl/Kurzmann-schnee_live
Rowe/Nakamura-between
Fagaschinski/Gal-Going Round In Serpentines
nmperign/Lescalleet-Love Me Two Times

let s say 4 and a half on 6 , the last four plus some of the first one

"I'm not trying to call you out, I'm just saying it's easy to make broad statements sometimes, and I think there's a fair amout of evidence to the contrary in this case. "

i ve really liked the last one, and the Rowe Nakamura some of it not all by far
the Schnee is no comment for me cause i dont get at all what s the point and i find that pretty annoying overall, and the 5 is ok though very expectable in the area i d say

but to agree on some, yes , i understand if you re naming these your point now in return let me just say for 6 albums like these i ve also got a pile of 20 or 30 really weak ones

what i ve really liked most recently was the Sei Miguel / Rafael Toral , altough it s not quite in the same vein

i ve heard the Taku live Australia the other day and i thought it was really extremely negative and to the point of serious paradox

and heard some Polwechsel that sounded like VSOP quintet to me

here we are more or less

Jon

"I'd probably agree here, but this is really only two people, Malfatti and Sugimoto (who came to it a few years after Radu). I thought this was what you meant initially, and I don't think it's a fair overarching statement to make, as it hardly represents an entire area of music, just one extreme end."

NO actually i thought at least this was so extreme that it ended up being clear to some extend

i m talking the times where you d get invited to sit in and "jam" ( what a wrong word here )
and faced people not playing anything in order
to follow their times and at the end whether you d be here or not wouldnt make any difference at all , not talking about if you d risk and play anything that wasnt a drone, you d get angry eyes at you

these are over, thanks

n

but, Noel, you do see how the times (mid-nineties) necessitated some kind of strong statement to break out of the rut that free improv had fallen into, right? I think the point is that the style of playing you're criticizing represents a starting point, not an end in and of itself (for most people, anyway). now the question remains, as always, where will things go from here.

and Jon and any one who do really love this music , i think it doesnt diserve it to leave it unquestionned and be pretty extactic about most of it as a general "New Thing" ( which is not anyway anymore, new ) - on a record listener level, the fact that so much of it is self produced doesnt help at all and it seriously lacks producers or at leats people to discuss what why in front ... it still is the case that anything, live tapes or home recordings comes out by various people including quite a lot too fresh ones i find

sorry to whom talked about skills ( Parker Trio ) before for not quoting properly, but on that issue NO i dont think Skills are in question at all here, you at least dont really need any instrumental ones to produce some music in the area, but still you need a strong idea of what you want to project and send ... and that doesnt come without some questions, practice and so on .otherwise it s a big atelier where anyone can also do his own version of it ... i dont think that s what we re talking about as being the "last wave" in improvised music

Jon

I certainly dont criticize the style of playing
i m really glad any time something else i havent heard comes out, but i need also something to be able to focus on at least as a listener , and not a global undistinct orgasm where soon anything equals everything

what i criticize is the attitude around
i dont think it made any good
rather the opposite

"Jon and any one who do really love this music , i think it doesnt diserve it to leave it unquestionned and be pretty extactic about most of it as a general "New Thing"

of course, this is the exact opposite of what I actually do. all I do is question, constantly.

"
of course, this is the exact opposite of what I actually do. all I do is question, constantly."

I guess that s why we re still talking here

that s the whole point i think too

as for future, you re stil totally here obviously but i havent seen so many newcomers around while some have already left the boat in a way or another .... and Keith will remain Keith

we ll see ( is the point too )

take care
n

I am not a detractor of EAI, I own pretty much the whole Erstwhile and Durian catalog and buy whatever they put out along with following certain musicians and other labels. Overall I find it a hugely positive movement in improvised music.

Once EAI became trendy it sort of removed the expectations that improvisors work with that level of vituosity for a while and most of us, myself included, felt a sense of relief!
Although, in many ways EAI moved the sense of displine from the practice room to the stage.
My initial feeling on the new Polwechsel was that it lacked the discipline of 1-3....

yesterday i went to a festival where the line up was : Ten Years After - Canned Heat - Phil Mazannera - Robert Plant - Roxy Music

that was pretty sad i must say .....

as a counter example

still i ll go to listen to Larry Coryell tomorrow ( havent in a long while )

the same as with EAI .....

is what i wanted to say

n

Damon

i fully agree with the Result
just not with the trend

and once the result arrived i wouldnt mind some effects as well, there is what i m missing too often

as for virtuosity it really doesnt matter at all, there s time and spaces for everything all we need is COHERENCE i guess

all is fine if it makes sense

n

and to be fair and end here
YES i mean i ve also got the last Makoto Ozone trio and that s really unecessary
but i ve heard some earlier Bernhard Gunter albums last week and felt that was another level too

a bit of all would be nice

n

"Global indistinct orgasms" ?

Where can I get me one of those?

Drawn a dividing line between old-skool improv and EAI is a pointless exercise in terms of my listening experiences: I'm as likely to hear an inventive gig in the former dialect as I am an uninspired one in the latter. But that's improvised music for you.

Sure ...

why ?

n

cause we re talking people ( indivudals or groups ) sending artistic ideas, making propositions or even statements in some cases via concerts , public presentation or objects called records

and not watching nature and being amazed by shapes and colours ( unless you d consider some sort of "Divine Esthetics" orchestrated by some "above")

it s not the big world of "naivity and hasard" it s a someone stating a something

n

I'm vaguely puzzled by these comments suggesting that the "old school" (horrific expression) is in a rut, or somehow finished or burned out.

If someone would kindly get Cecil Taylor, Evan Parker, Barry Guy and Tony Oxley back on a stage together again, as in "Nailed" (of 16 years ago!), such talk may well evaporate.

It's also getting late - these men are no longer young.

I don't really see how all improvised music should be lumped together just because that's the way it's created.

A big difference, though, is that this genre of free improv has a history and tradition behind it and all the expectations that come with it. Do you continue in the "tradition" or make a break with it? Maybe it's easier to attempt to start over. - and I say "attempt" because the idea of THE NEW is overbearing and often silly.

Though I don't think that eai is this break with free improv like it seems, there's a conflict there, eh? I just think they're different and the supposed competition between them comes from looking at them as "improvised music" rather than different animals in their own right.

When I hear eai I hear electronic music, and with free improv I hear jazz - and maybe that's the divider - TASTE.

sorry to generalize.

Noel, I think you are right that the music needs to keep from stagnating and to make clear statements regardless of instrumental technique. but it is also interesting when the musicians are reaching for something that they don't quite understand, and this can get messy and fail.

Absolutely Yes !
7th harm

as for "old and new" it s just a nonsense
"Different" is just fine ...

new gets by definiton old

that s why i would insist here on more "enjoy" than "drawaline" , when you try too hard to separate before it is really "further" you get the snake biting his tale ...

but i m overall excited by the paradoxes and walls we re facing now, might bring somewhere we dunno

my question is always why people discovering something else need to call it "New" and throw out everything before because supposed to be "old" , if any Good, they will remain in the line ... or is the past so disturbing ?

"new" was already so many different times and things, like Larry Coryell, if anyone remembers how much "the new thing" he s been in his days , well i guess "new thing" fans dont bother much these days

n

There was a great file some years ago ( dont think it made it trough , havent seen it again )
in record stores it was : "20th Century Music"
( after the awful "New Music" in other stores )

and
i m not worried at all that we ll find nostalgia in 2018 and more for "EAI 2003" ....

and the main reason i m here is , i m very excited to hear things going on, different, even "new" ( to close the paradox) but in the last years i too often found a a serious Gap between what was said to be achieved and my own experience of it as a listener

that s why i ASK FOR MORE ( or then soon someting esle as well )

NEXT PLEASE !

cheers
n

and i would often wish we use the word JAZZ the same way we use the word CINEMA ...

under Jazz are so many diffrent things too, as for improvised, it s only a way to ( "improvised Music" may have become a genre, improvising isnt )

there s so many music having strong roots in Jazz for historical and taste reasons ( or WITH reasons ) wether EAI, or the SKATALITES or NORAH JONES or SOUKOUSS ... each have an obvious link to Jazz but each also have many other ones

n

though it is impossible to do so, what about the idea of starting from zero? to try to look at music from the ground up..

I do think some music makers attempt to start from zero, and perhaps arrive at some of the same ideas that are in jazz. So in that way it is related but not in a linear way.

How to deal with the weight of history?

It's like the son that has to choose whether to live in his father's shadow or to pretend the shadow does not exist and forge his own identity. It can be both creative and destructive at the same time.

"what about the idea of starting from zero?"

it always came here and there but until quite recently music was still very fucntional no ( Ellington / Basie ) ?
still part of the recording industry ...
what did Ornette taking Denardo as a Child ?

" How to deal with the weight of history?"

i dont see it as weight at all actually ... i mean we have so many examples of people strongly influenced and totally their own no ?
dont you hear so much Mary Lou Williams in Cecil Taylor ?

to me history is a permament reinvention ... so much forces you to go ahead, of course some people get stuck but again you can get stuck anywhere so ...

you can totally be influenced by T.Bone Walker, Ali Farka Toure or Julius Hemphill and play none of their styles , but your own

i mean Evan Parker or Lol Coxhill are like librairies and they never ever copied anyone esle so ....

but start from zero ...yes .... i think music comes from music so you never really can do the zero or as you said from zero you arrive into "repeating history"

n

reinventing from zero is never entirely possible, but you can get a lot closer if you grow up in a country without much of a jazz/improvised music tradition, as the Tokyo musicians so crucial to the development of "eai" did.

"NEXT PLEASE !"

Noel, have you heard the stuff at homophoni.com? 013 and 014 specifically I think you'd enjoy, Joe F. is in English which I recommended above, Joe P. is in the superb duo Scenic Railroads (w/ Mike Shiflet) and put out a great solo disc earlier this year, Polished Rocks (Gameboy).

of course, if you're really looking for "next", we all know that recorded documents can only represent the past. both English and Scenic Railroads will be rocking the Quake this year:

http://www.erstwhilerecords.com/live/erstquake3.html

I don't think it very smart to make it a competion, even though my comment about not wanting to face Parker/Guy/Lytton vituosity sounded like a negative I still believe the result was well worth it.
Kind of like how "For Alto" admitedly comes from failing at solo improvisation.
I am not giving up any of my favorite Maya OR Erstwhile discs, that is for sure.
Still, the bar set by P/G/L is something to look at for my generation as well as the micro detail and discipline of the best EAI.

"reinventing from zero is never entirely possible, but you can get a lot closer if you grow up in a country without much of a jazz/improvised music tradition, as the Tokyo musicians so crucial to the development of "eai" did."

Jon sorry but the jazz kizas in the 60s were one of the most advanced collectors places for Jazz, and there s been a Jazz and Free Jazz scene in Japan much before what you seem to be ..at least Takayanagi is a strong influence on quite some people you re talking here -

and i think the main influence is the japanese relation to Fluxus , if you d listen to Tokyo s EAI with Fluxus history things would immadiately sound much more under influence that you may want to say

in return i dont know how much of European Free Improvised music has made it in the USA really ( not talking 3 capitals with very specialized people ) so it s everywhere possible to start from zero and this anyway a question that ends up like the "NO EGO" one

just a fantasy

n

and Jon

"Noel, have you heard the stuff at homophoni.com? 013 and 014 specifically I think"

thanks i ll have an ear and look

the "Next Please" i m talking is just i thought it was really exciting when things started and
nothing was really pre-defined so strongly as it came later by drastic rules or at least a certain desire for going radical that sometimes locked things and often ( to me )
left them as just something on the paper

i m sure you knwo what i m saying, when each step brought another possible directions and you d see quite some artists evolving real time months after months and going for some unknown or unheard

but not quite in the music after ... so all i m saying here is as we re facing quite some paradoxes here and there i m glad it starts again to loook for things and get dirty or fails sometimes or just try ...

and you know very simply what i think, it wouldnt be any discussion if artsist and others around didnt raised themselves that
line of ceasure ...

when people have been really critical about previous things than i wish them to also be with what they bring up , cause by far not all is on the same level and not all is gifted ....

if at the end i have to listen to not very good records by not very interesting asrtists but that still is brought up as "Something Else"
i DO react against

nothing more nothing less

n

"I don't think it very smart to make it a competion,"

certainly not ....

all we ve said was it started with people NOT WANTING ANYMORE to do what was here before ... and that s where different things and EAI came up , or at least part of it

nothing else

n

of course, it's always a lot easier to talk about how other people's work isn't really so new and/or exciting than it is to create your own work that is actually new and/or exciting.

"of course, it's always a lot easier to talk about how other people's work isn't really so new and/or exciting than it is to create your own work that is actually new and/or exciting."

- It sure is for me! Still, I go for exciting rather than new.
There is nothing comparable to "Four Gentlemen of the Guitar"
in the early stages of EAI.
Just like my favorite Cecil CD is the relatively recent Willisau disc.
My only real point is that at this point some of the threads EAI
left behind are worth re -investgating.

Jon

"of course, it's always a lot easier to talk about how other people's work isn't really so new and/or exciting than it is to create your own work that is actually new and/or exciting."

i m not quite sure what you want to say here but whatever questions or critics i adress it is mainly to the attitude that came along
this different or new way to approach music

i understand it is very exciting for some people
but i less understand the need to draw a line , and sometime a pretty heavy one ...

it s a bit like when Louis Ferdinand Celine was saying at the end " Y a les CONS et MOI"
( There are the assholes and Myself )

i dont think we need that at all
if you see what i mean because in return it also brings people to play with the "drawaline" snydrome into their work ( i find that sometime, like whatever is being played needs a STRONG separation to anything else
up to the point that the gesture is more important than any musical result )

anyway
i think we ve gibbered on that by far too much ( and i take my responsibilities for it )
best
n

and personnally if that area is to be continued i wouldnt mind less dogma and homogenic groups and maybe more "crossover" or some people with a different background and approach to try together with earlier ones

once the frame is set it s maybe time for some
more dialogue and inter-actions ...

dunno
you for sure know much better

n

I go for exciting rather than new.

That's interesting. Perhaps one definition of 'jaded' is something like 'unable to be excited by anything not seen as entirely new.'

i go for anything that excites me

wether antics and ruins or "just arrived an hour ago" ... and without any complex nor need to be told what s new and what s not

best

n

when music is improvised it is, de facto, more about specific situations and individuals than it a linear historical "progress". Prescriptive ideas about the aesthetic redundancy or superiority of this or that camp are routinely either belied or affirmed within the timescale of one boring set at a gig.

Newness is problematic in music anyway. A lot of recent hip-hop and dubstep reminds me of late electro from '88 (no bad thing, course). A lot of recent electronic music reminds me of field recordings on the fantastic BBC Sound Effects library cassettes series and British Library field recordings . A lot of other recent electronic music reminds me of Louis and Bebe Barron. A lot of other recent electronic music reminds me of Merzbow.

I'd like to know: how new is music produced by an old-skool Euro free-improv saxophonist playing with an eai laptopper and contacts'n'surfaces exciter? 50% new? 76% new?

"My only real point is that at this point some of the threads EAI left behind are worth re -investgating."

Damon, this is what I heard in EAI that I initially liked, and why I brought up the idea of starting from zero - I didn't see EAI as being so much new, but just a different way of looking at ideas that were perhaps discarded in the past.

In fact, that's what happens alot I think - instead of being so concerned with "the new", artists revive a thread of an idea from history that was abandoned and not explored completely.

You see it in popular culture constantly with the revival of musical trends of years past (70's, 80's etc.) (but part of the concerns there are really just commercial)

so yeah, starting from zero, as if we were cavemen banging 2 rocks together then go from there! (Sonic Pleasure anyone :) )

"but just a different way of looking at ideas that were perhaps discarded in the past. "

by Al Di Meola or Olaf Rupp for example or ....

"instead of being so concerned with "the new", artists revive a thread of an idea from history that was abandoned and not explored completely."

Altough Dziga Vertov did both at once ....

"You see it in popular culture constantly with the revival of musical trends of years past (70's, 80's etc.)"

and mid 60´s in re-Improv or Re-free-jazz

" (but part of the concerns there are really just commercial)"

Dont miss that one, it is also the case, just the fees are a lot worse but ...still : Business is Business ( once you got famous for one thing you need to do that thing every night )

"so yeah, starting from zero, as if we were cavemen banging 2 rocks together then go from there! "

gonna save some dollars or euro-dollars cause you have it all already ....

GREAT !

enjoy

n

not being cynical or esle a single second
just HAVING FUN

you too i hope
n

"not being cynical or esle a single second
just HAVING FUN

you too i hope "

oh yes, absolutely! I've enjoyed the conversation.

cheers!

Lovely

let s shake and bubles indeed

n

" it s a bit like when Louis Ferdinand Celine was saying at the end " Y a les CONS et MOI"
( There are the assholes and Myself ) "

I believe Con is Cunt. How come you have to reply two or three times to every one response?

" it s a bit like when Louis Ferdinand Celine was saying at the end " Y a les CONS et MOI"
( There are the assholes and Myself ) "

I believe Con is Cunt, Akchote. How come you have to reply two or three times to every one response?

hehe... well how come *you* have to post the same thing twice? by the way, con can mean cunt, but is more often used for idiot, dork or asshole. noël is french, i think you can trust him on this one.

Con is Cunt indeed but i think Cunt is more brutal than Con in French ... i thought asshole was smoother ....

it s just how it feels might be totally wrong

"How come you have to reply two or three times to every one response?"

very simple : writing one thing leads to think about another one and i dont collect all my "thoughts" before in order to edit it all as a text ... it s just a chat , things come as they come

but it seems why you dont yourself Multi-Post was what you meant ..reading your double

n

I think this about said it all for me:

"Lovely

let s shake and bubles indeed"