Yes, but is it innovative?

:)

I got this and the Mattin/Workman duo from the guy runs the lable. Is it innovative? I'm not sure I care.
It is good music. I'm glad this stuff has outgrown it's dogmatic trendy phase and I am just as glad musicians like this keep making great music in this area.
I am just getting to digesting "Four Gentlemen of the guitar".
I seems to be another great one.

I think Nate's question, attached smiley or not, is perfectly serious and relevant, especially given the lengths the sleeve notes go to to stress the innovative aspects of the work. Those familiar with Radu's other writings, notably the email exchange with Taku Sugimoto in the IMJ book of a couple of years ago, much of which was extracted from my own interview with him (still available for consultation at http://www.paristransatlantic.com/magazine/interviews/malfatti.html ) will recognise the recurring themes. It seems that being innovative, and being seen to be part of the progressive vanguard is still important for Radu (and, we assume, for Mattin too). But, attractive enough as the music on this disc is, I can't say I find it particularly surprising amymore, or innovative. I do find it more interesting than the earlier Mattin Workman thing on Formed, but, as I said elsewhere, far less impressive than Whitenoise.
So much for the music - I also admit to being mildly allergic to Walter Benjamin quotes. I take it that's Mattin's doing; shame Radu couldn't have prevailed upon him to quote some Sloterdijk instead.
Meanwhile, at the risk of being considered a terrible old stagnant fuddy duddy by my trombone playing pal from Vienna, when is someone going to reissue his two FMP albums with Stefan Wittwer?

"Meanwhile, at the risk of being considered a terrible old stagnant fuddy duddy by my trombone playing pal from Vienna, when is someone going to reissue his two FMP albums with Stefan Wittwer?"
- Those are awesome, but the duos with Harry Miller are my favorite.
As far as innovation, It is safe to say Radu is still working on a concept he innovated.
What if Richard Serra or Robert Ryman stopped refining their work after minimalism in visual art stopped being trendy?
Both of those guy's recent work is some of the most complelling
art being produced these days.
For me it is the same with Radu.

"It is safe to say Radu is still working on a concept he innovated."
That sounds like the old Phil Durrant line "Radu is the Godfather of the Berlin School", which surprised RM as much as anyone else when he heard about it (see his remarks in the PT interview). The jury's still out as to who "invented" lowercase / reductionism as far as I'm concerned: Malfatti is certainly important, but he's not alone. I think Ben Watson had a point when he also credited IST and early Dafeldecker.
Anyway, you can say that "Steve Reich is still working on a concept he innovated" but it doesn't excuse the fact that everything he's written since 1989 is hugely disappointing compared to the early groundbreaking works.
"What if Richard Serra or Robert Ryman stopped refining their work"
There's a difference between refining and trotting out the same shit. I'll take your word on recent Serra, but as far as I'm concerned, Going Fragile isn't any more refined than Whitenoise. If anything I find it less dramatic, more predictable in terms of its pacing and actual sounds. One man's "refining" is another person's "stagnation."
And sorry Brian, I find your "it's very nice at low volume" thing to be something of a cop-out.

Well, I was simply reporting on the way I derived the most pleasure from the recording. It's not the first time I've found that "not listening" works very well with a given recording though certain ones, it would seem to be clear, allow themselves to be heard in this manner better than others, both with regard to the intent of the creator(s) and the physical nature of the sounds produced. Although, I must say, I don't know that this should be a hard and fast rule...I mean, it's no great shakes conceptually for as long as I've been alive at least, to have the option of hearing any piece of music in the context of one's listening environment, yes? It's easier, given the unshrug-offable cultural baggage we all carry, with some work than others (and, as I said above, I find that "Going Fragile" tinges the room quite beautifully--you may disagree), though it's still fun to try in more...difficult situations. The other evening, I was at a bar with a friend wherein a perfectly fine, fairly mainstream jazz quartet was playing. Not my cup o' tea musically, but I found that by using the considerable bar-noise as a counterpoint, I could just about balance the the two sources in my head, greatly enhancing the aural enjoyment of the occasion. Now, would the musicians be annoyed if I congratulated them on the performance, making mention of what I'd done to make it enjoyable for myself? Given that they were mainstream jazzers, yeah, probably so. But so what? Would Richard Serra be annoyed if, in addition to appreciating the positioning of his iron slabs in the chosen environment, the play of light off them, etc., I enjoyed the way the idiotic chatter of some art-snob bounced off their parabolic surfaces? Jeez, I'd hope not.

I'm assuming that Mattin and Malfatti would have no objection to (one of) the ways I enjoyed their disc. But if so, hey, listeners have their own rights.

I would just like to point out that the liners that are on the sleeve of ''Going Fragile'' were written quite before the material that is on this released has been recorded. You can find it on Mattin's website:

www.mattin.org/essays/Going_Fragile_english_FINAL.html

in fact they were written in July, while their small tour in Austria and Italy was at the end of the year. I attended the gig in Tarcento. My objections to Mattin after the concert was about his ''inactivity''. In fact Radu did most of the work and played quite a lot by his standard and with bigger variety in his sound spectrum than usual. I think that Whitenoise is an example how Mattin put Radu in some unusual situation for him that's why i think Whitenoise is a stronger release. One thing that was great on the Tarcento gig (which i think lasted longer than on the record) was the use of the space. In fact there was constant reoccuring sound by the air condition machine which gave the music a kind of structural element. I think some of the things were lost on the recording and post production.
But back to the liners- at least Mattin's part is more like an essay of his modus operandi. I don't read it as striving for innovation but as constant search for a challenge in the proces of improvising which may work or may not ...
and Sloterdijk- yikes i still haven't grabbed the hermeneutics philosophy

"I think Ben Watson had a point when he also credited IST and early Dafeldecker."
-Not to drag the Watson thing out more, but he said "IST and Radu Malfatti's Powecsel" (Dafeldecker leads Polwecsel).
I know IST worked in this area, but they also kept working in a more chattery style with derek, etc.
I always thought IST got there a bit later, though I could be wrong.

Ben Webster ??

yours
n

Another thing one can try is PLAY AT NO VOLUME and watch the Artwork for the complete length of the Album
then check if it matches by playing the actual CD FAST FORWARD

you mayb get a different effect each time you do that

Cheers
n

and to end here i d like also to open a serious matter ... THERE is a incredible amount of these albums that barely CANT be heard in PLANES nor Trains ( Cars too but i dont drive )

if you still do so you get a quite interesting RESULT actually but it s probably a complete betrayal of what the Artist MEANT

had a great experience with the TAKU live in Austrlia on a flight recently
but i ll have to listen to the album again to get an idea of THE album

take Care
n

I don't think IST had much to do with reductionism other than the low volume they played at. They certainly didn't share Malfatti's overriding aesthetic – there's not much actual silence on any of IST's albums. The playing is quite busy in fact, it's just it's at a low volume, as it was when I saw them live. I read a comment from Rhodri Davies in an interview online in which he complained that a lot of the time he was playing quite loudly – the harp is comparatively speaking a quiet instrument. The music Davies and Wastell have made since is much less busy. (Though even when you listen to, say, Open [Erstwhile] there's actually something going on all the time – there are never protracted silences).

I haven't heard Going Fragile yet. But the most moribund reductionist improv I've heard recently has been the stuff that just drones prettily, sounding almost like New Age music avanted-up with a few creaks and glitches – not the Sugimoto or Malfattiesque radical use of rigorous silence.

Noel, surely at some point along the spectrum that passes through the point called Taku Sugimoto, what the artist "meant" must take into account the inevitable mixture of what he/she created and the environment in which it's being heard, yes? I doubt Taku expects people to listen to "Live in Australia" (which I love) in anechoic chambers. Where on that line one determines the location of the point at which ambient noise becomes detrimental to the intent of the music's creator is a more difficult and interesting question, imho.

" the location of the point at which ambient noise becomes detrimental to the intent of the music's creator is a more difficult and interesting question, imho."

Brian , But that s what i find most interesting at that point somehow but also questionable cause if you took that Radu Taku live at Rhiz
it ended up a RHIZ BAR picture to me more than a DUO of them , ( not arguing about the music at all here but talking about the experience and in my case only )
and as Such an audio document ( "an evening at that location X " ) i thought it s badly missing
a step further into PROJECTING something from that ONE LOCATION ( not Rhiz )
if you see what i mean ... somethinh is left totally IN BETWEEN , and i dont expect Musique concret better but a DECISION ( whihc seems PRECISELY what at least Taku seem TO REFUSE ...) therefore it s a bit of the old Lacanian Joke on the pefect S&M couple :
the first one says HIT me to the other who replies CERTAINLY NOT.

whatever

if i give you an other example in return I OFTEN miss all that noise, people eating loud etc in recent JAZZ recording ...i cant conceive rec like Charlie Christian Live at Mintons without all the buzz around and people talking to what he plays ... and they are many other examples ...

ALL THAT SPEAKS ...
n

and to link it but there was discussion on that last Potlatch record ( dont have it in front (but you know ) about things being Edited etc ...and i though : wait a second that s about the definition of A PRODUCED ALBUM
cause most ( any style almost unless what i ll say later now ) records have always been edited ( there isnt probably a single studio album of Miles and others in jazz not where solos arent edited even ) otherwise ( that links the Situation of listening ) its what Improvised music have done great ( early Incus LPs are a statment to me for THAT precisely ) it s AN AUDIO DOCUMENT which we all want Full Length, Un-edited as much as possible and
as it s been "played-done-etc"
well HERE IS THE WHOLE question
what is HAS IT S BEEN PLAYED ?
and therfore what is the way to listent indeed

but ok i have to confess i CANT listen to something at home in the cans ...just need to go somewhere or on the way to listen to anything ( can play a record while doing something esle though )

best
n

and not to mention that as a musician playing on stage what you hear of the whole thing is FAR from what you d hear from a record

the same if i d never been to Tonic or CBGB and got an amateur rec of a show but from the Bar and imagine i d rave about these places and imagine like this or that i may simply stick to the atmosophere from which that music who might sound very "local" or typical from the location would only be one element ...maybe the waitress taking orders might more Evocative or maybe i d recognise a famous musician talking something at the bar
etc etc

that s why i sometime dont get from where i should listen to some these recordings

at least the Taku Principia Mathem.. was total MADE UP and clearer to me ( in that sense mainly )

n

Thanks for the comments, everyone. What made me want to release Going Fragile in the first place was the feeling that Radu and Mattin had bridged their initial engagements with reductive playing and were using it as an approach to music-making, not as an end in and of itself. I'm not overly interestd in the reverse-machismo of some artists' work in this area, in which there almost seems to have been a contest to see who can be quietest. I think that this was an interesting thing to try for a while, but there is something of a horizon where works like that become more conceptual art than music. However, I remain quite interested in musicians who can utilize this means to new ends.
And Noel, I've had the same problem with quiet music on noisy transports. I am going to bite the bullet and buy some noise-cancelling headphones eventually.

Very interesting, your comments Will. I'm still coming to terms with this one, and preparing a forthcoming lengthier article that will discuss it along with other recent releases in similar vein (wonder if you can guess which ones..). What I like about what you say is the implication that after all what counts is doing something musical (ah, that old heavy words..) - what's always impressed me about both Radu and Mattin is how musical they are.

Dan, that's something I've been thinking about also: a person's inherent "musicality", loaded, subjective term though that may be. We all have, I'm guessing, certain musicians whose every note charms us due to an affinity we have with his/her essential musicality; I daresay most of us would even agree on a handful. Monk, for instance. Very hard for me to imagine any issuance of his that doesn't, on some level, simply sound wonderful. As someone once said, "He even walks musical." It gets pretty interesting, imho, when you're extended into relatively extreme sound areas and a musician's musicality still, somehow, comes through even if they're generating static or, indeed, not playing.

(I'm wondering about an analogy between this and comedians you simply find funny, almost no matter what actual material they're using. You simply have to laugh at/with them.)

This makes me... think about... well, Derek Bailey's book... was it call "improvisation" simply? (I could check so easily but right now I cant be bothered)... In my memory he talks about improvisation, improvising, in music... he talks about the way improvising happens to appear in various kind of music... Maybe this is just the xay I remember... And then of course here we are. That... humm, euh, this record which I havent listened to... its more and more about this again. How to improvise inside the area of improvised music? Its like an old, also,"I think that I think"... next harder step (why not think of Nietzsche here... pfffff) "I think that I think that I think"...

Euh... m'not dsure I'm that clear... I mean, how to also think of improvisation out of any... concept of it? idea of it... whatever... maybe... well I'm not such idealist... but like... pure freedom... pffffffff... or other way, totalitarism... Mmhhhh... at the moment, when I play,I really just start from the limit of it, to be serious... and also to have a good laugh with it... my own surprise...

Also.. I foten feel like while playing a concert, improvised stuff... or even studio like no cut no edit... its like resolving a problem... maybe sometimes like mathematical... or just about solving an enigma... we start playing and then by itself creates its own enigma... and then

pfffffff

pffffff, indeed!

WHAT THE FUCK IN WRONG WITH THIS FRENCH GUYS???

"What the fuck IN wrong with THIS French guys?"
What the fuck is wrong with your grammar?!

Will

" I've had the same problem with quiet music on noisy transports. I am going to bite the bullet and buy some noise-cancelling headphones eventually. "

I understand i just wanted to say that when you face many environments or daily situations where such an area of music becomes actually less than hafl what you hear while you decided to LISTEN to someone s record WELL ... how much of the rumble outside and around is actually "interactivating" (for Dan ) with the given music ( and general proposal of such music(s) ) ...HERE
( but again to me only ) i find it doesnt inter-act as much as one would expect ( actually doesnt at all most of the time, the outside noise sound takes it all for me very often and the Music doesnt Bend or intend or etc much it s like an extra track on the side ) THEREFORE ... i m wondering really about the FORM ... but maybe what many of you are saying here is that THE CAN experience ( the isolation Tank in other words ) is Needed because that s the Perefct Partner for this one experience ? - i think a SOUND , exactely like a cinema picture, needs always ( whatever the intention is, the nature of the sound etc ) something which is a Re-created, invetend, made up and that is : A PROJECTION ( you can project silence the exact same way a Guitar "hot licks "solo from "Cheap Trick" is Projected )

so again if a last question : WHY are there not much more Productions actually really PRODUCED in terms of edited, cuted, made up , re invented ... PROJECTED ?
cause the improvisational part in this general idea isnt as crucial or as dogmatic as in earlier times, it s just a way to but certainly not the end desire ( and anyway more and more pieces appears on albums as "Compositions" so )

Best
n

and we re facing that problem since quite a while ...not much difference made from any side between INFORMATION, COMMUNICATION, DOCUMENTS and A WORK, a PIECE OF MUSIC or ART, A BOOK, AN ALBUM

i guess" the form-lacks-it "
it s not because it is possible / Available that it s MEANT

we re still facing millions of Albums on CD format without any INNER shape or concept
They are some essays here and there but i havent heard much records going really for 72 minutes AS a 72 Minutes piece ( only works for LIVE documents where it s a definite plus not to have to turn the LP in between 4th and 5th movment or in the middle of a collective elevation in the group )

"Le fond c est la forme qui remonte a la surface"

best
n

For those who got that Ayler box set ( just an example ) i think the promotional CD was from far enough for most people and they could have a Deluxe edition with the rest of it as FILES on a DVD or MP3 ... that would not hurt anyone i think ...i still havent finished the Promo CD so

Serge Gainsbourg s album are all between 27 and 32 minutes and they are Jewels in terms of AN ALBUM and a Production and a Tracklist and so on ( we all have a other examples such ) it MEANS something

as opposed to when they all started that "dig grave" thing and reissues "enhanced" ( less is More ?) , does any one remember that Coltrane "Africa" (was it ?) with the two takes ?
first one , original as officially released at its time and second, ( not even alternate, just another take ) where no one s together ... a huge mess never taking off
do we need that ? do we need to WITNESS the chief when he does your meal ?

n

" what's always impressed me about both Radu and Mattin is how musical they are. "

YEP sorry all, i havent heard that particular one album but i wasnt talking precisely of this one
but more as a "push push general"

n

"WHAT THE FUCK IN WRONG WITH THIS FRENCH GUYS???"

Where do you come from ?

regards
n

PS : i d suggest a more general use of FREEDOM instead of FRENCH

so it would go more like :

"What the fuck IS wrong with these FREEDOM guys "

And Dan

"What I like about what you say is the implication that after all what counts is doing something musical (ah, that old heavy words..) -" YES i guess i share that one totally but let s not forget that in the old days they d start a century long War on what s "Musical" and what is Not.
Right now A GENOCIDE even

n

PS

to all

IF I DISTURB ANYHOW YOUR CONVERSATION on THIS ALBUM just LET ME KNOW and i wont anymore

"I also admit to being mildly allergic to Walter Benjamin quotes. I take it that's Mattin's doing; shame Radu couldn't have prevailed upon him to quote some Sloterdijk instead"

What I would like to see in your article, Dan, is an archeaolgy of Radu’s influences and ideas. It is evident to me Radu is no godfather to the Berlin reductionism but just another musician and composer who met similarly minded people some of whom happen now to be livng in Berlin. Who or what are Wendelwiese? Who is the god-father of Radu is a question: what is the meaning of the conflict between his silence and the Cage silence or the Oliveros deep-listening, what made it a potent difference for him, what made it important, what made it “his own” thing to keep, what keeps it important for him, for you, why? All of these questions no one really poses and tries to answer. It would be nice to see someone go outside the heirarchizing bullshits, this fanatical generationalism—which serves only to belittle the younger musicians for no good reason-- and see what relationships exists on the horizontal plane of ideas and practices. I am not personally convinced the breakages of Mattin’s silences are complicated versions of Radu’s conceptual background apparatus taken from the miners hands and pounded into a gold plate for serving dead flesh upon anyway, as novel as any sentence could be. I expect the boring results of exciting ideas and practices will engender eventually only the virtuosic prose of praising professionalism and a defense of the typical attitude over the extraordinary exception. I like Walter Benjamin, a whole fucking lot and don’t care if you don’t but at minimum you must put your Sloterdijk where your mouth is so we can read and think about why you think he’s more important, although that’s like comparing the fins of two different species of fish, I think. Check this out: this is the most exciting thing ever, all CDs aside:

http://www.binauralmedia.org/projects/survey.html

Especially the Chris Watson. If Cage’s silence was about the world being music (not just Ive’s machines and Varese’s crowds), then the speech of animals is of course the most under-recorded and unmarketed musician on your block, no one knows their names, labels or emails addresses, they say fuck all theory and are for sure busting out the groove and getting paid birdfeed for it.

I heard Tilbury’s recital of the last Feldman piano piece, live, here in Kreuzberg. I clicked on the microcassette. Lovely, placid. Especially of course the slight smile on the lips of the elder gentleman performer’s face. Abt twenty minutes later, after a thrice repeated phrase where you expect in Feldman always at least another hour out from this…the sound fades to silence. Then applause. Click off microcassette. RH on my right-hand asks, how long was that? Short. I started to imagine the smile was the knowing smile of an impending death, the end of the piece, the death of the music and the composer, the release. The satisfaction of the fragmentary, the undoing of intention by the final dissolution over which no one has any power reflected in the admiration of passing water under the bridge. One day later, at the same hour, I am playing the microcassette for AN at Kule. It is a nice moment in which I feel happy knowing that someone else is made happy by something that makes me happy: this hissy little speaker with the delicate piano clusters plinking out (ir)regularly, placidly, in a lovely way, still creates a mood between us we share. As I describe the curious smile Tilbury had on his face, AN points out: it could have been because he was playing such a bad piano. I countered that maybe the last piano piece’s great innovation was that it was unpredictably short. Feldman was a genius.

Well said, Jeff.

"a musician's musicality still, somehow, comes through even if they're generating static or, indeed, not playing.

(I'm wondering about an analogy between this and comedians you simply find funny, almost no matter what actual material they're using. You simply have to laugh at/with them"

these issue you speak of here brian, i feel, are about sympathy and humanity not about aesthetics. aesthetics is a hardening of these malleable and mellible forces into dogmatic stasis. aesthetics can be transformed by these forces. but to make these forces into an aesthetics without sentimentality is the art of the future perhaps

and sorry to say there is a point where the monk must go off sometimes

(but i'd never toss the record out)

(unless i got an offer i couldnt refuse)

(and i've often refused those)

hmmm...is then musicality then the apophinastai?

(wait, i dont have any monk records anymore!)

and what about unmusicality and desperation and a whole other range of feelings?

But its like, maybe, its more important to some musicians to do something "different"... than maybe just do what they "feel"... because I like the idea of taking risks... like Mattin talks about in the notes for "Going fragile", I havent listened to the cd but read the notes on internet... but of course taking risks in itself seems not enough neither...

the most important probably is that one follows his desire... and no matter what people say... like someone would say to Gainsbourg : "oh your album is too short"...

"And what about unmusicality and desperation and a whole other range of feelings?"

CANT WAIT ...but it seems all musicians are never ever suspected to Lie or Play Tricks while they play ... seems PLAYING is FAITHFUL and always ENTIRELY DEDICATED HONESTLY TRUELY ... who knows why actually ? and where does it come from ... ?

cause i dont think it s REALLY like that at all
there s some weird shit going on during the show too

n

In earlier jazz days people on stage talked a lot while playing and made signs and did things to get it moving while doing it
there was even a whole language of signs meaning various things from Coda to Bb to Eb , to To the bridge to BETTER END SOON YOUR F..... SOLO
etc

n

there s a Paul Motian story on tour where the whole day has been a drag, shit travels and finnally the get there and have to be on stage immediately to start ...after some minutes Paul makes huge signs to the soundman to come over while playing and he asked him :

Is The Hotel as fucked as the drum kit ?

n

"cause the improvisational part in this general idea isnt as crucial or as dogmatic as in earlier times, it s just a way to but certainly not the end desire ( and anyway more and more pieces appears on albums as "Compositions" so )"

this is indeed crucial. i think i was telling you once about a "nurse with wound" record i think but anyway it was one of these late 80's early 90's guys wanted to make a recording of something that was not so intrusive, to listen to while doing acid, something that would disappear or melt back into the walls. this is why streaming stations are interesting. you can develop a streaming station of such environmental music that functions more like and installation and which will constantly be changing. you could even employ improvisors or composers to preside over the real time creation of it. that way musicians can live in one place part of their lives and think more about how to raise their kids, keep their neighborhoods from being gentrified etc. rather than not being sure what city they are in...

but yes there is an error i think in continuing to speaking of much of this music as being improvisation. i think mattin in one sense wants to take the dogma of prevostian improv to heart but also i think maybe the limits of what can be done with a laptop that is really improvisational (in a non-reactive way), and be really different everytime, are increasingly upon him. i felt it within two months of using the laptop. not to say there is not more new music, just not sure that this old hard core technique based improv is useful as a creative paradigm or as an ethos even (it works better as an ethos when EVERYONE is allowed to improvise, as a social statement and social condition--which it is, by the way!)

anyway, i discussed this nurse with wound stuff with a guy who wants to write a history of electro-acoustic improv and he said it didnt count because it was not really improvisation. that's it though: i don't personally care if the music is improvised or not. that's because i dont care much about this paradigm of skills. (i had to sit through django bates before tilbury--enough to make you schizophrenic: in the first case i am hoping for an earthquake to stop these skills from torturing me with this endlessly liquid banality and then when tilbury plays i am in love with skills again...such is life)

The French team says Goodbye
( and not : the french tins said googuy ... or something )

n

Does it mean, that when its really really good (album, book, movie), you dont need too much of it? otherwise its just become like... not desire but "jouissance"???

Pffffff. At the moment I am often annoyed like this. I can take something for 10 minutes, then I get bored when it goes on more and more and when I feel its really not necessary... nothing more is added or developped?

sorry, maybe I'm talking crap... but I'm interrested...

Alexandre

When was the last time someone here have seen a musician leaving the stage pissed off in the middle of a show ?

is a question for example ..

n

Pfffff, It goes so fast all this messages... I've been taken in the flow... euh... Noel its so true what you said about codes and signs on stage... it seems now somehow that its all become... nearly forbidden to be alive on stage... still human... thats so true

and also on appearance, its all also become quite polite... respectfull... too polite an too respectfull obviously... when we know sometimes in fact that people would like to say something stonger... but they slowly built up all this interdictions... all this rules...

AS IMPROVISING remains a Fact and will never ever be a genre or an outfit
it s up to every one to play that game with various degrees or restrictions
it s not a big issue

it only becomes a problem when there s a serious MISUNDERSTANDING and a confusion often between WEIRD or NOISY or SILENT or SOMETHING and Improvisation ( to me at least )
especially if you end up locked in it without being asked before ...

n

Didnt Horowitz and others of that classical all of fame IMPROVISED quite a bit in the text sometime especially after long restaurant sessions with full menu ?

see ...

n

but... how did we get to this point that... improvised music as somehow become such a genre thing?

just a kind of refugee place for certain musicians not being able to express themselves otherway... in their original music, because obviously most people in improv came from someother genres of music...

and yes, its turned probably a little too serious now...

and to answer your question noel... pfffffff, no I've never seen a musician leaving the stage pissed off... I did it once quite a while ago... it was a large improv group and it was really terrifically dead music... also I remember when playing with Jean-François Pauvros that sometimes when he's bored during the concert he just started playing some really heavy clichés rock line to wake up the other musicians...

maybe, its more important to some musicians to do something "different"... "

something to do with having to impress people, the audience, rather than figure out what music a moment contains or how does your music relate to the context in which it is being performed

all questions really. of course the music relates to the audience also often where you seem to be at the mercy of audience expectations...but this cant be the only thing that guides you...a great percentage of the music we love did not follow audience or critics expectations or desires and it probably shouldnt ever...this begs the question about your own expectations and desires as a player...how can you know what is right? if you've ever played something that you thought for sure was crap and had it recieved with overwhleming enthusiasm then you know what i mean: it can tend to make you feel a bit crazy.

"When was the last time someone here have seen a musician leaving the stage pissed off in the middle of a show ?"

in nyc in 1998 i played unamplified violin with two marshall stacked guitarists and fritz welch and although it was fine in rehearsals the gig energy was such that everytime i started to play the whole thing became an unbridled rock noise jam in which i couldnt hear anything. i put the violin on the ground and layed down between the guitarists in fornt of the drum kit. they hated that.

"no I've never seen a musician leaving the stage pissed off.."

i was close to that last time i played at les instants chavires

to relate this all back to the thread is important: why do we do things that are expected of us, why do we transgress the limits set out for us, what is proper behaviour for musicians, all depends on the context and my own questions about what these silences are for, what is their meaning, what is their musical function as opposed to the musical reality of silence itself, why do we at all persist in trying to maintain the surface and to whom does this surface belong when the sound becomes so thin that it seems transparent and other sounds start to speak for themselves and yes, finally, why do we listen to cds of music made with this aspect of silence in the music as if we could isolate and evaluate the musical content outside of the extra-musical content especially is some of this extra-musical content is in the process of becoming musical?

"When was the last time someone here have seen a musician leaving the stage pissed off in the middle of a show ?"
Edward Perraud, Instants Chavires, with Schams (Jean Luc Guionnet & Eric Cordier). Must have been about 6 years ago now.
Jeff, yes, the article - when it comes - will have to be substantial. Thanks for your links - excellent as ever! - and your comments.
I did write a rather long article on the Wandelweiser people for Signal To Noise a few years back. Thanks for reminding me about that: I think I'll stick it on the site next month.

i decided to listen to some old Radu LPs last night and re-found my copy of bracknell breakdown. I had forgotten that one side of the LP is evan parker and john stevens (stuff from the longest night i'm assuming) while the other side is what it's supposed to be. Anybody know what's up with that pressing?
In any case, enjoyed "thrumblin" more.
----------------
i wrote a short review of baltimore's high zero fest in the wire's jan. 2006 issue and described a moment when scott rosenberg left the stage in disgust. it made me quite fond of scott and carly (who instigated the leavetaking), if for no other reason than that they expressed their investment in the music by taking it seriously enough - and onstage - to actualize a disagreement over.
------------------------

I once saw Fred Frith walk out on a quartet with Lukas Ligeti, Kazuhisa Uchihashi and Henry Kaiser in Oakland in 2002. As I wrote at the time, "Frith seemed to be open to actually playing in a way that would let everybody contribute and make music, but a competing aesthetic coming from Kaiser kept shoving everything into an Agharta acid-funk bubble, where it sort of grooved (mostly didn’t), and didn’t go anywhere at all. Half an hour into the first set, after rattling a pick dropped inside the body of his acoustic guitar for several bored minutes, Frith got up and left the stage, leaving the others to carry on, but nothing much more happened."

By that time more than half the audience had voted with their feet.

I'm not sure if this counts but....I was saw Fripp walk out on his League of Crafty Guitarists. First he threatened to walk out when people started to applaud when silence was heard between the pieces. Then, he walked out. When he changed his mind, he came back for another 5 minutes. Then, as people began to clap in appreciation, he became especially pissed and walked out for good. It was still a bang for the buck [$5] to see Fripp with his flock of guitarists for a whole 20 minutes.

"When was the last time someone here have seen a musician leaving the stage pissed off in the middle of a show ?"

When was the last time you were reading a music review and came to the point where the writer got pissed and walked out of the article?

;)

That happens all the time but you never read it because instead of g it I publishinsdsdjcjsdysbyuhbusdujbjs
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that brings us to the subjects of e.e. cummings
and p.inman
i believe

Has anyone seen a hotel walk out in the middle of a drum solo?

if damon smith see this msg, please contact me. i'm collecting fmp/saj music and i'd really like to talk with u. i know your name through weasel walter. maybe you can help me about some records..

mmm speaking about free music, i just got "remarks" by christmann/schonember/boje and its really wonderful, personally i prefer the third section of the disc where boje plays the synthesizer. sadly, this lp is out of print for a long time.. : (

cheers from italy

Hello Stuart! Nice to see you're lurking in the wings :) What do YOU make of the Malfatti / Mattin (or albums of similar ilk)?

Thanks for the welcome, Dan. Actually I just arrived here a few days ago. I'm just hearing the Mattin/Malfatti for the first time, and it's pretty much overwhelmed by an unusually high level of environmental noise--except for what I take to be on/off clicks. I was delighted in the past by Dachte Musik and its glacial quality--the present disc seems like its musical events reduced to such a minimum that it's the experience of listening (the I-ear as a potential organizer)that's being scrutinized rather than the music as a sequence of events.
("Yes, yes, I confess. I'll tell you everything, just turn it on." What was it the ATF played on loudspeakers to get David Koresh out of his Waco compound?)
Stuart Broomer

A hearty Canuck welcome to you Stuart!

Quick question for you - someone around here was talking about a Paul Haines book / tribute CD [I can't recall]. Can you confirm anything of the kind is in the works.

Hi Tom,
The Haines book I'm responsible for is a collected writings called Word Music. I turned in the manuscript some time ago to Warwick General Publishing in Toronto. It's advertised on their site (www.warwickgp.com), and I'm hoping it appears soon.
Stuart

Hi Jeff,

I caught that Tilbury performance at Tasten.

Is there anyway I can bum a copy of that recording off of you?

stuart-

"the present disc seems like its musical events reduced to such a minimum that it's the experience of listening (the I-ear as a potential organizer)that's being scrutinized rather than the music as a sequence of events."

i think this is a fine idea. the work is actually scrutinizing the listener rather than the other way around. but how intentional is that? what forces the event of scrutiny?

Me--if that really is your name--
"Is there anyway I can bum a copy of that recording off of you?"

Why, your memories are just as good as any noisy microcassette, even if it isnt accidentally recorded over already! Isnt there a cd of him playing it available? if not it will for sure happen soon with far better fidelity...they had microphones on it at ballhaus naunynstrasse so it must be there for posterity...

"the present disc seems like its musical events reduced to such a minimum that it's the experience of listening (the I-ear as a potential organizer)that's being scrutinized rather than the music as a sequence of events."

This sounds very interesting, could you please elaborate on this.
the music happening on the thoughts of the listener rather than on the cd or the cd just as a conceptual proposition rather than music, could it be this?

For Jeff and Tomas,
I was thinking of Cage's original proposition that listening not making is the essential act. What makes much improvised music of interest is that the auditor's aesthetic construct is clearly as complete (as authoritative) as any of the musicians. Note too the reader response analysis of Stanley Fish (His book: "Is There a Text in This Class?") who found students willing to "interpret" randomly generated text when that text was presented as "writing." The degree of the Mattin/Malfatti minimalism seems to emphasize the space available to the interpreter.

I don't want to go into this in great detail. I may yet review this CD at length and want to have something left to say.

Cheers,
Stuart

Hi, Stuart. Welcome.

For what it's worth, I'm uncomfortable with any radical relativism that shifts the focus of aesthetic values from musicians to audience. I get into some of my reasons for that discomfort in a forthcoming review of David Borgo's new book in STN.

Stuart, I would very much like to read the review if you do it, as what you are talking sounds like a new perspective on minimal improvised music, very interesting and stimulating!

I was relistenin today A CD from Alvin Lucier.
A piece called "Elegy for Albert Anastasia" reminded me a bit of this CD by Mattin/Malfatti.

And the liner notes (by Robert Ashley) are great.
I quote :
"Elegy for Albert Anastasia is composed for electromagnetic tape using very low sounds most of which are below human audibility.
Elegy for the MAfia guy Albert Anastasia who didnot hear the sounds he should have heard when he was sitting in the barber chair."

dunno, with all due respect, that seems less like a new perspective on this area and more like one that's simply not very familiar with it. a neophyte to the work of someone like Evan Parker or Schlippenbach (artists I'm sure Stuart is more familiar with) could easily say something similar, because they're looking for a different kind of structure than is actually there, a kind of structure that they're more used to. to my ears, Going Fragile is a nice release, but as Dan said above, it's hardly surprising or innovative, and it's structured almost precisely how someone very familiar with their recent aesthetics would expect.

Stuart said earlier:

"I'm just hearing the Mattin/Malfatti for the first time, and it's pretty much overwhelmed by an unusually high level of environmental noise--except for what I take to be on/off clicks."

not sure what this means, environmental noise in your listening space or on the record? I assume the former, but I'm not sure. I also don't recall hearing any on/off clicks, but I haven't spent so much time with this yet.

of course, the listener's perspective is crucial, but it always is with any music.

FWIW, on my first listen to this, I was surprised how active it was, just because of my expectations regarding Radu's work. of course, on subsequent listens I wasn't quite sure what I was thinking on that first listen, but that was my initial reaction.

"listening not making is the essential act"

what about listening as an act?

this is developing more in phonography and is a wide open field and starkly contrasts with the concept of formal musicianship--the one place i see actual innovations in procedures, attitudes that link to other science and the environment. in electro-acoustic "improvisation" there have been no new perspectives in ten years (what happens to saxophone playing in zero gravity is a nice question). there are some new techniques yes but they all revolve around the "hero" so they all resolve into worship of extended techniques and often the worshipper has no idea how the sounds are actually created (hence they are more than supsect as judges of whether or not it is innovative--and what does innovative mean?

to walto:
aesthetic values are themselves arbitrary and relativistic, a kind of tautological non-sense that believes itself, the moat around the middles class castle with its ivory tower of plutocratic opinionism. for what it's worth, i am uncomfortable with the bad writing, poor editorial decisions, spelling and informational errors and general aimlessness of that publication anyway

"aesthetic values are themselves arbitrary and relativistic, a kind of tautological non-sense that believes itself, the moat around the middles class castle with its ivory tower of plutocratic opinionism."

Nothing like big pronouncements to brighten my day. Go get 'em, comrade! Make the non-heuristic bastards eat their own enculturation pie!

And bad writing too, yet. Feh.

this thread just made my workday slightly more tolerable.

whether or not it's innovative, i love this music, and i thank each of you for so passionately exploring its particulars.

:)

I personally find more interesting to talk about the particularities of this recording than to think in a binary way (is it innovative or is it not? in regards to what? the whole trend of this music?).
This cd is different enought to Whitenoise to be put in the same box. Whitenoise has a more abrupt feeling, while this one is much more calm (perhaps this is what you mean by not having surprises?)

I don't think people would normally think that way, Tomas, but all of the text on the CD almost forces you to in this case.

hey jon, just wanted to clarify that - in case you didn't notice - the "tomas" posting here is not me... for my part, i haven't heard going fragile yet (though i was just given a copy from mattin), so i cannot comment on it.

I fully agree with Jon - the fact that GF comes wrapped in nothing less than a manifesto automatically conditions the listening. Hands up anyone - honest - who popped the disc into the machine without reading any of the text? Pretty hard to avoid, isn't it?

hi Jon and Dan:
after such a pretentious text any cd would be unsurprising, don't you think?

>the fact that GF comes wrapped in nothing less than a manifesto automatically conditions the listening.

Wouldn't it be cool if CDs came with liner-note essays that were totally unrelated to the music? You could get double value for your money: a chunk of music, and, say, an essay on beekeeping, or on the history of Viking raids on England in the 800s. Or useful information, like how to tune up your car's engine and perform oil changes, like that.

I haven't listen to the music, but I have read the text before on the web and I found it inspirational but Oil changes might be also very inspirational;-)
after all this comments I am not sure weather to spend my money on this cd or not.

"a chunk of music, and, say, an essay on beekeeping, or on the history of Viking raids on England in the 800s. Or useful information, like how to tune up your car's engine and perform oil changes, like that."
I'll start reading up on Viking raids on England in the 800s straight away (I leave all car problems to the bloke in the garage to sort out). Great idea Phil! Reminds me of the great Swedish false subtitles at the opening of Monty Python and the Holy Grail ("wei not trei a holiday in Sweden this yeir?"). And would certainly be more fun than
Walter Benjamin, which is about as arid as the music on offer. No, this one's not wearing well, I'm afraid - I've now listened to it patiently and seriously five times and have come to the conclusion that a sixth listen won't make me like it any more than I do at the moment. This is one of those discs I want to like but can't. But to check my memory, I played it back to back with Whitenoise and I stand by my earlier comments - Whitenoise wins hands down.

Dan, I also relistened to Whitenoise yesterday with headphones... I dont have Going Fragile... well, wouldnt you say its arid music too... Mmhhh, maybe title of this Going Fragile means something here... Does it actually sound fragile you'd say?

And while listening to Whitenoise... I thought.. mmmhhhh, well... to me it seems really organised this music... really nothing really natural... really coming from mind rather than body... really cold no? arid?

If you think "fragile" in music means extremely quiet, delicate, near silent, etc, yes; but the kind of fragility Mattin speaks of in his notes is something I would more easily describe as "danger", the idea that the music can at any moment go in any direction, surprise both listeners and performers, even fall apart altogether. (For me, Misha Mengelberg's music is fragile.) I don't find as much of that in GF as I do in Whitenoise.
Nor do I want to give the impression I dislike this new record, because I don't (and a forthcoming review I'm writing should make that clear). And you shouldn't necessarily see "arid" as 100% putdown - sometimes I use it as such (I remember describing Greg Kelley's Trumpet as arid and later changed my mind) sometimes I don't (is there any album more wonderfully arid than Dachte Musik? Deserts are arid, and I like deserts - but there's a hell of a difference between the Sahara and Northern Arizona.

somehow to me... with this type of playing... unless its a total mind game thing I find somehow tiring to follow... I dont feel like its such a dangerous music to play... obviously when playing that little amount of thing... I find it hard to make... what??? a mistake... I find it quite linear (Whitenoise). Maybe only risk there is that sometimes it gets just boring... not working if you dont make a big effort enough to just stay in that frame of mind...

and still, yes, yes, I cant say neither that I dislike storngly Whitenoise... and, yes, arid... OK.

hi Dan: I personally don't find interesting to compare a cd with other cds in the same field (sometimes it might be good to contextualise but not when it becomes the core of the argument). When journalist do that I think they just want to show off.

tomas, I don't think mentioning other reviews (even a bunch of them) is showing off. On the contrary, as a potential consumer, I'd much rather have a CD compared to something I might have heard than, say, a desert (or a food or animal, which were my normal comparison items when I reviewed). Providing names of similar records or cuts actually gives a clue what the recording sounds like, at least to those who've heard some of them. Other types of reviews try to inform about content, but I don't like play-by-plays ("at the 6:30 mark it moves to the dominant, remaining thither for 12 seconds....") Finally, reviewers effusing about how a CD makes them feel--that's not show-offy maybe, but it's awfully presumptuous.

i don't see why comparing CD's should have anything to do with showing off either.

yep, it's just about context, although it certainly can be overdone a bit.

but if you're talking about Dan's repeated mentions of Whitenoise, I assume you realize that that's the first duo record from Mattin/Radu, while Going Fragile is the second? it seems quite appropriate in this case, especially since the aesthetics of the two are at the very least similar.

" personally don't find interesting to compare a cd with other cds in the same field"
What do you want me to compare it to? Kind Of Blue? Black and Blue? Blue Velvet? The Velvet Lounge? The Lounge Lizards? The Lizard King? King Curtis? Curtis Blow? Blowfly? I don't understand your remark at all.. is this Tomas KORBER I'm talking to here?
"When journalist do that I think they just want to show off."
Yeah, like all the above free associations..

"is this Tomas KORBER I'm talking to here?"

no, tomas korber is posting by "tk" in this thread, as he mentioned above. this is a different tomas.

yeah. "tomas": i'd be thankful if you would post under a different name (maybe append the first letter from your last name) as this is causing a lot of confusion... i'm already getting emails...

sorry for that tk!
" personally don't find interesting to compare a cd with other cds in the same field"...
or in any other field. I just think that often music journalist rather than engaging with the cds that are reviewing they just show that they really know about the genre of music by using comparations. Comparations are easy to make but to bring particular aspects from cds and trying to capture their mood in language, is not so easy, that's all.

Tomas Guerrera

Tomas G: "I just think that often music journalist rather than engaging with the cds that are reviewing they just show that they really know about the genre of music by using comparations. Comparations are easy to make but to bring particular aspects from cds and trying to capture their mood in language, is not so easy, that's all."

Sure, comparisons are easy to make, and in a lot of pop/rock journalism such comparisons are pure laziness. But comparisons have their shorthand uses, especially when you're obliged to review a CD in just 250 words. That doesn't mean that music journalists aren't engaging with the CDs or the music they contain.

dear Brian: are you going to tell me that laziness does not exist in the experimental music journalism?

For me, the problem with "non-lazy"--even extremely industrious--reviews that fail to give names of people making similar music, is that after reading them I often have very little idea what the reviewed works actually sounds like. And this tends to be true even when I've been told only that it's highly recommended or superb, but that it's much more like the Sahara than the Gobi. ;>}

There are, of course, lazy and incompetent reviewers in all areas of music. But the key point I was making was about how fitting all one has to say into a mere 250 words is sometimes difficult, and comparisons, in that regard, can be useful.

I am just wondering when two musicians playing sparse music at a low volume will stop causing debates about it's merits.
I think we have established that it is not radically new, but if the idea was worthwhile in the first place it deserves refining.
I don't think a decade is long enough to really expore this mode of operation.
If we look at the Evan Parker/Barry Guy for example, language they pretty much marked out what they were going to work on with their first lp "Incision" in 1981. The next lp Tai kyoku moved it forward just a bit and then 1994's "Obliquities" was a whole new world of refined and detailed interaction.
Had they stopped and moved on to "more innovative teritorries"
we would not have 2002's "birds and Blades" which brought it to whole other level once again.

I am not sure this cd is a milestone of this type of interaction like erstlive 005 or "four gentlemen of the guitar".
but it is:
a. serious music well played by serious musicians
b. an enjoyable listen several times through
I don't need anymore than that.

Very well said Damon.

I agree w Damon on this one however i think you all missed one important point here- the point being that we re not the only one who listen to this music. And beiing on the concert of Malfattin in Tarcento showed me that this music is pretty much radical and intruiging for people who have the first oportunity to face it. That's why i think manifesto on the cover works wider that just on those who are already familiar w aesthetic of Radu Malfatti and others ...

Maybe so, but it's not like Mr and Mrs Bloggs are likely to pick up a copy of Going Fragile in their local Sainsburys supermarket, is it? Though the world would probably be a better place if they could.. or maybe not.. imagine going shopping and suddenly instead of the normal supermarket muzak you get a blast of.. PINKNOISE! Yo! The frozen food aisle will never be the same again.. little old ladies with blue rinse hairdos run screaming for the exits trying in vain to compete with Junko bottles of Heinz tomato ketchup dropped in the panic the whole fucking place starts to look like a Paul McCarthy installation OR how about Hermann Nitsch for the MEAT department? Listen to the sound of ritual slaughter as you choose your weekend steak!
No seriously folks, even if you're right Luka and it's good that neophytes read some (maybe not all) of the words of wisdom on the album cover, you have to agree that it's not exactly the kind of album you're likely to notice. Alas..

As funny as yr post is Dan i was speaking about the situation where this music at least for me becomes fully alive- about the concert. And as i am aware of many artists in this field of music sell more cds on their concert than thru shops and distributors ...
About the album i notice it and will keep on bumping into it althou as i wrote earlier i prefer Whitenoise Yo!...

I think it's long been known that almost all CDs of anything but very popular music or classical music are sold at concerts. No gig, no sales.

Agreed (with both of you!) - Radu and Taku Sugimoto's set at the Instants Chavirés a couple of years ago was absolutely riveting.. and, yes Walt, Uncle Leo was at least right about gigs selling albums, as I found out (to my delight) last night!

Hmmm, I bought around 350 CDs last year and a good three quarters came from a shop.
No idea how relevant that is to the album iunder discussion, but thought I would tell you all :)

I've been playing Going Fragile quite a bit and find it a nice listen. It doesn't really go anywhere that Whitenoise didn't, but it also doesn't sound much like anything else I've heard for a while.
Whilst I am as much in favour of progression and innovation in music as anyone it can be gradual and I don't necessarilly require that every new album I listen to causes me to rethink my understanding of contemporary music...

As I told Mattin last week, if he and Malfatti make another ten albums that sound like this I'll get bored OK, but two nice sounding similar albums isn't a problem to me.

I did ask him about the slightly OTT pronouncements on the sleeve however, and how they didn't seem to follow through so much into the music, but as he had been making use of the free bar we were attending for much of the evening I won't repeat his response here... :)

i guess his response was "it's fucking boring"... ;)

"Radu and Taku Sugimoto's set at the Instants Chavirés a couple of years ago was absolutely riveting.."

I second that!
But I am not sure that Taku would like to play like this again ????

If Jason Kahn's tour diary (see June PT) is anything to go by, I'm not sure he wants to play AT ALL ;-)

Richard, I too generally buy my CDs other than at concerts as do many others of course. But those (50? 100?) sales can take place in about an hour at one concert. On the net it may take several years.

[Walto]- "Richard, I too generally buy my CDs other than at concerts as do many others of course. But those (50? 100?) sales can take place in about an hour at one concert. On the net it may take several years."

Sure, no doubt about that (though at the concerts I attend you're doing well to get fifty people there, let alone gettign them to buy your CD...!)
I just mentioned myself as an exception to your rule above that said "No gig, No sales". For me at least this is far from true, but then I live in easy reach of a great record shop that serves most of my musical needs and I guess we aren't all as lucky.