Clifford, would you mind elaborating on this:

Live at the Bottle Fest presents not only one of the most successful pairings of reedman and percussionist in recent memory, but also one of the greatest examples of the format in recent memory.

I do understand that this means you like it a lot, but I don't know what "recent memory" is and what, if any, recordings you're here saying it's as (or more) "successful" or as "great" (or greater) than. Also, I don't know you mean by "format."

Thanks. Sorry to be so obtuse.

Actually, what it means is I need an editor so I don't repeat myself. Thanks!

Oh, wait, now I see what I was thinking - the G&Ts garbled my wordage. I was going from "specific" (Brotz and Nasheets) to "general" (the sax-drums format). I think.

"Actually, what it means is I need an editor so I don't repeat myself"
As Mitch the secret agent said in Mars Attacks when he saves Jack Nicholson's bacon by blasting the little fucker's green brain to shit, "It's mah job" :)

I always find the accusation of "not listening" (here directed at Hamid Drake) interesting.
Speaking for myself, just because I hear something not mean I will respond to it, and if I do respond there is no code of rules as to what that response should be.
We musicians may may hear something and choose to alter what we are doing, we may decide to respond in a huge variety of ways.
It is really impossible to know exactly what a musician heard or to know what they are responding to and why.

I suppose the claim that "well I WAS listening anyhow" won't mean much to the listener who finds the claimant obtuse or unsympathetic or too 'bossy.'

Which probably just means that I agree with Clifford about the relative merits of Waits.

That is exactly my point, the listener can judge the only the actions of the musician, not what they are hearing.
I was listening to the first Die LIke A Dog cd the other day, both William and Hamid are playing in way that I find way more interesting than what they are doing lately.
Both William and Hamid seem to be into making wholesale shifts from one area to another these days rather than the subtle and fluid interaction of say, Barry Guy and Paul Lytton.
I think some of William and Hamid's concepts are based on jazz rhythm section ideas that the rhythm section is to "to be listened to", to lay something down.
The problem with the that approach is that it can be inflexable, Guy & Lytton can be too chattery.
I believe one of the partylines with EAI musicians is avoiding being too conversational and maybe being more stuctural.
I can site numerous examples of where I find these approaches to work very well or not work at all.

I agree w/ Damon here about the relative merits' of others' listening/ non-listening - impossible to judge. My experiences w/ both Waits and Drake would have me way way over to the side of Hamid as a better listener. The Waits/ Brotz show in DC late in September featured almost no ear rapport. (Though they were both very good together I thought at the ACME festival in atlanta a couple years ago)

I think the real person who doesn't listen to others so well is Brotzy.

"I think the real person who doesn't listen to others so well is Brotzy."
- Well, in my experience playing with him twice, I found him to to be extremely interactive, I would have been more than happy to follow him all night, but he seemed very responsive to what I was doing in terms of both dynamics and harmony.
I think he has a real understanding of making art.

"I think he has a real understanding of making art."

I think we have a real misunderstanding.

Instead of making such cryptic comments, perhaps you'd like to justify what you wrote above by giving us some sort of definition of what you mean by listening in this context. Is good listening for you just a question of picking up and running with one of your playing partner's musical ideas (maybe just a particular pitch, or interval, or melodic / rhythmic cell) or what? How easy should it be for relatively inexperienced listeners (non musicians, say) to be able to follow the musical argument? Who do you consider to be good listeners, then? I'm no great Brötzmann fan myself but I'd think twice before writing the kind of James Bond throwaway line you treated us to above.

Keith Rowe asked Brotzmann a couple of years ago: "can you hear the musicians you're playing with when you play at full force?" Brotzmann answered: "sometimes I can hear the bassist".

I think I told that one already here once, but it seemed specifically relevant.

I guess my point is you never know what the musician heard, and how they are processing it.
While 99 percent the time I am playing improvised music on stage, I feel like i play a wide variety of it. each situation has different demands and of course I have my own tastes and agendas.
If I try the same concepts of listening, playing and responding with Marco Eneidi as I do with Wolfgang Fuchs it is not going to
get the richest experience out of the situation for anyone.
Much like I imagine Mr. Waits use different concept with Brotzmann than he does with Andrew Hill

nice quote, jon! however, i do wonder if that was said tounge-in-cheek? i've never had the good fortune to speak to herr brotzmann, but in interviews it seems that he's not above a good one liner. i've only seem him once, but listened to many of his records. while it's foolish to say he doesn't at times simply blow the keys off, i don't think he gets proper credit for being the sensitive/responsive player that he is (esp. in more recent years).

the way Keith told it to me, it seemed like Brotz was serious, but who knows? I think the question was also specifically about just part of his playing, the times when he's blowing full force. obviously when he's more subdued, he can hear the other musicians better.

I think when he gets bllowing full force it is just time to listen to him.
With all the rhetoric about listen, listen, listen, it can sometimes be overlooked that an improvisor also needs to present material
that is to be listened to. If a musician is only reacting that is not so interesesting.
Not to say that listening is not important.

I'll go out on a limb and say that I think Damon's only trying to point out that "listening" and "being responsive" are two very different things. I agree with this.

Is Brotz listening? Certainly more these days than when I used to see him a lot during his heavy-drinking period.

Lately I value more and more, the players who stay with their ideas and aren't so quickly swept away in reacting to their partners. There are times where all this reacting seems to take away potential from the music, from the possibility of function. Other times it seems like people are ignoring each other. In the end result all that matters is if the music reaches you, and the relative attention or habits of the players means a lot less.

now that i think about it didn't Prevost have some pretty unkind words for Keith Rowe on this subject? something to the effect that he listens only to himself at the expense of those he plays with. i don't really get that impression listening to Rowe but WTFDIK?

Now this is turning into an interesting discussion, and it really makes me want to play with Damon at some point down the line... I especially liked this quote re: Brotz:
"I think when he gets bllowing full force it is just time to listen to him."

Nicely said... and to add my two cents, I once had the good fortune to play with Peter Kowald in a trio with Endre Landsnes (norwegian drummer here in New Orleans who i play with quite a bit), and after the gig we discussed what things we thought worked about the gig and what didn't. PK said that at times when things weren't as happening that what was missing was "a decisive element," which is what I think both Reuben and Damon are getting at here. There does seem to be heavy emphasis in the rhetoric these days on listening and subtlety, but these things can be overvalued just like anything else. I tend to enjoy musicians who take initiative, bring some direction to the music, and 'present material' as Damon said. This of course doesn't preclude also being a sensitive and responsive listener to the group/collaborators. But anyhow, the Kowald comment was very helpful and has stuck with me.

And to tie things back to the earlier comment, I've always found Hamid to be exceptionally attuned to what's going on around him. He was just here in New Orleans this week doing a gig and recording session with local saxophonist Robert Wagner, and he did an impressive job playing Wagner's tunes (this was jazz trio, not a free-playing situation) with little-to-no preparation. Wagner and the bassist were a bit in awe of him and I did notice that he held back a bit until toward the end of the set so as not to overpower them. That's playing like a bandmember, not a visiting star.

And when are the Brotz/Miller/Moholo sessions gonna get CD'd?!? it seems UMS is getting all the other ones out, but those are the ones i want (the LP's are too pricey now)...

It's funny that a lot of you seem to respond to my comment re: Drake, but not so much re: Graves.

I find that Drake appears to play the same shit every time I see or hear him play, with almost no variations upon that theme - no matter who he is with. It is a reliance on the "expected." Brotzmann does that somewhat, too, but I find him eminently more engaging and a lot less predictable than Drake.

"I find that Drake appears to play the same shit every time I see or hear him play, with almost no variations upon that theme - no matter who he is with. It is a reliance on the "expected." Brotzmann does that somewhat, too, but I find him eminently more engaging and a lot less predictable than Drake."

-Maybe if you are surviving on promos and few gigs here and there. Those guys are working with distinct concepts, but have as wide a variety as anyone in their discographies. I would direct you to "little birds have a fast heart" vols 1 & 2. both have a wide range of material and interaction - If you listen.

Well, now you are really inspiring me.

My taste and experience tell me that I do not like Hamid Drake's playing, and that he doesn't direct the music in a way that seems fruitful. My mind has changed on Parker, but I doubt it will on ho-hum Hamid. If I'm bored by this mode of playing, it stands to reason that I probably will not check him out a lot or buy everything he does, duh...

I am not saying he is my ideal drummer either, my preference is more toward Lovens, Lytton, Dannie Richmond, Moholo-Moholo or even Bryerton. However, not liking Hamid and saying he plays the same thing everytime are two different things.
I also think in the right context he is amazing.

Dannie Richmond! NOW ya talking!!

So I finally got a copy of this. What I would say is that Brötzmann has a interesting way of dealing with jazz time concepts or "American rhythms". The problem for me is that it does not seem to be a two way street. Meaning that I would have serious doubts that Mr. Waits has an understanding of work of Lovens, Bennink or Sommer. Not That i suggest he must Like them, or play like them, but an awarness and understanding could help him maximize this situation.
As such, I woud have to say duo section on "Reserve" with Baby Sommer is the best drum/sax duo is Brötz's catalog for my money.
Still, it is an enjoyable listen and it would be nice if my accusations of "American chauvinism" are off-base.