[Dan] London, as Martin Davidson will proudly confirm, boasts more free improvisers per square mile than any other city on the planet...

[Mike] I think San Francisco and NYC are often cited for the same distinction, and I seriously doubt any of these three have a clear case to be made for them.

[Dan] ...many still have to struggle to play for more than five people, five quid and a packet of chips at the end of the gig.

[Mike] Sounds exactly like every place I've been or heard of!

as for Takehiro, the russian sites say that he plays prepared electric guitar (one says bass guitar). doesn't your google write "Did you mean to search for: Nishide Takehiro?". gives you more results. like: "Nishide Takehiro (Jap) - prepared electric guitar and mixer".

He also plays tapes, though whether he did so on Scopa Possibilities I have no idea.

"Nishide" is much more likely than "Nisihide" because "si" is from the strongly dispreferred of the two romanization systems for Japanese, and is usually written as "shi", which matches its correct pronunciation in the mind of English speakers. It's really quite rare (and lame) that people use the awkward, scientifically blinkered system with "si" and "zi" instead of the one with "shi" and "ji", the familiar example among us folks being "Tetsuzi Akiyama", a dumb way of spelling what's pronounced and usually written as "Tetsuji Akiyama". I'm guessing that "Nisihide" is just a mistake that got propagated in Russian discourse contexts.

"London, as Martin Davidson will proudly confirm, boasts more free improvisers per square mile than any other city on the planet, but even despite the noble encouragement of that most Londoncentric of new music publications, The Wire, many still have to struggle to play for more than five people, five quid and a packet of chips at the end of the gig. So the scene has gone into survival mode: small venues (the basement of Mark Wastell's Sound323 is certainly cosy, as is the studio at Resonance FM where Lucky Hands was recorded), small groups (with the exception of the awful hydra-headed monster that is the LIO) and small labels, including Wastell's Confront and TwoThousandAnd .....,"

what, what?? how did you draw these conclusions dan? i appreciate you live in paris and your visits to london are rare, but i don't think you could be further from the truth. to say the scene has gone into survival mode is just plain wrong. it's a very old-fashioned attitute to think 'this' music only caters for 3 lonely, bearded old men and a stray dog. the weekly/monthly club venues in london (the bonnington, the klinker, mopomoso, back in your town, ongaku, sprawl, cyrk, free radicals etc. etc.) regularly attract audiences of between 25 and over 100+. one of the reasons i've suspended in-store gigs at sound 323 is because the space became too small to house the audience. since relocating to a larger venue a few hundred metres down the road, the four shows we've promoted so far have attracted an average audience of at least 50. one-off shows, festivals and special events will, depending on who is performing and at which venue, get between 100 and 400+. the upcoming lmc festival (5 nights of music) has been pre-booked to capacity each evening - about 160 seats i believe. i know it's an underground activity and we're not talking rock venue quantity, but i believe the live scene in london is very healthy. one thing that can keep audience levels low is the amount of choice for gigs in london. during any one week in town there's probably half a dozen shows or more (depending on personal taste of course) to choose from.

and what do you mean by small labels? number of releases? amount of distribution? sales? ambition and ideas? confront reaches all corners of the globe (thanks to all those concerned - you know who you are!), 'foldings' has sold 700+ copies, 'trem' the same, 'unwanted object' is 10 copies off of selling out it's limited edition run of 300. hardly evidence of a scene in survival mode.

"audiences of between 25 and over 100+."
And how many people turn up for overhyped trash like Meltdown at the RFH in comparison?

"i know it's an underground activity"
That's what I meant by "survival mode" - sorry if it wasn't exactly clear Mark

and what do you mean by small labels? number of releases? amount of distribution? sales? ambition and ideas? confront reaches all corners of the globe (thanks to all those concerned - you know who you are!), 'foldings' has sold 700+ copies, 'trem' the same, 'unwanted object' is 10 copies off of selling out it's limited edition run of 300. hardly evidence of a scene in survival mode.

Any label that presses under 1000 is a small label in my book. Depends what you mean by small, I suppose.
Anyway, London's doing very well compared to Paris, n'est-ce pas?

"And how many people turn up for overhyped trash like Meltdown at the RFH in comparison?"

but that's a rock/pop festival - isn't it?

"Anyway, London's doing very well compared to Paris, n'est-ce pas?"

ain't that the truth!

btw, have been digging your recent release with fred etc. on cs.

Sure it's rock & pop - aim high, man! Remember Clive Bell's hilarious "Stadprov" skit in the Wire several years back about Bailey playing 60000 seater stadiums (well, we can dream..)? No, Mark, I was thinking about Ed's despairing anti-Meltdown rant a few months back (also in the Wire). I tried to interest the ICA (amongst others) in a Less Is More mini festival back in 2002 (remember?), with four duos - Kurzmann / Stangl, nmperign / myself & Bruno Meillier / and yo good self & Phil Durrant - and look how far that went! Though I still think it's a good idea, actually.
"btw, have been digging your recent release with fred etc. on cs."
Thanks for the kind words - funny, it doesn't seem all that recent anymore! Firstly since it was recorded way back in May 2001 (which feels like a century ago) and secondly because no fewer than THIRTY THREE discs have appeared on Creative Sources since ours!! Sacré bleu!

what, what?? how did you draw these conclusions dan? i appreciate you live in paris and your visits to london are rare, but i don't think you could be further from the truth. to say the scene has gone into survival mode is just plain wrong.

Normally I'd think someone at the 'epicentre' of London's improvising scene would have the right to make correction over a Paris resident. But having read the October Wire I'm just not sure Mark's in a position to do that. I was confused by his implications that he and Graham Halliwell were a part of Eddie Prevost's Workshop, given in my two years or so of regular attendance I never saw them there (Matt Davis? maybe), and no current regulars I've spoken to recall their presence at the workshop either. (It's funny, since back in 2001 some of us used to get written off as Workshop People.) And what about stating "that period three years ago was a very fertile scene. Mattin was here, Joel Stern, Anthony Guerra, Takehiro Nishide and [huh?] Margarida Garcia."? Margarida's a cool person - no doubt I would have had fun hanging out with her in London, had she ever lived here during that 'fertile' period. Fertile it was indeed, and I miss those departed friends of mine, but Margarida's only time in London around then, as far as I'm aware, was playing in Sakada at Freedom of the City with Mark, Mattin, et al. Overall I was impressed by the New London Silence article, but items such as these really stuck as statements of convenience and promotion rather than of historical fact. Therefore I'd say Dan has as much right to make his 'survival mode' statement. Even moreso since I agree with it in some respects.

it's a very old-fashioned attitute to think 'this' music only caters for 3 lonely, bearded old men and a stray dog. the weekly/monthly club venues in london
the bonnington- entering survival mode when the venue closes down next month
the klinker- often has 3 bearded men and a stray dog playing! I'm doing my first (South) one in ages mostly because Hugh's not organising it.
mopomoso- Is that actually running?
back in your town yeah, monthly
ongaku- 2 gigs this year, not a weekly/monthly
sprawl- you could make a strong argument for this not being in the 'scene' we're discussing. Doesn't have many bearded old men, but plenty of chatty people.
cyrk- this nite's cool, though I think it too is slipping from it's monthly status somewhat?
free radicals- I'm already sounding negative enough . . .

one thing that can keep audience levels low is the amount of choice for gigs in london. during any one week in town there's probably half a dozen shows or more (depending on personal taste of course) to choose from.

What, what?? London has felt pretty quiet for me lately, but regardless I'd have a hard time saying people are just stunned with choice in this city. Maybe if you count EVERY possible thing happening you could reach 6 shows a week, but I think what keeps some show audiences low is boredom with those 6 gigs just being the same as the week before, or organisers not putting enough energy into making their event special. There's some newer, younger faces at some shows I've been to recently, but I'm not witnessing a revolution just yet.

one-off shows, festivals and special events will, depending on who is performing and at which venue, get between 100 and 400+. the upcoming lmc festival (5 nights of music) has been pre-booked to capacity each evening

This is a stronger area than any of the regular shows in London (though I can't think of any festivals besides LMC), and I'm glad some of these special events have been around to brighten my year. I'm pleased the LMC is getting back on track with concert promotion. Really I'd be happy if there was just one special, good gig a month in London. We have a really hard time here with venues, the city being so spread out and expensive property-wise. It makes those special gigs hard to organise sometimes, and it's difficult to entice foreign visitors to come if you can't pay them, can't put them up, can't find a venue etc.

I too, sympathised with Ed's comments about programming, and I feel the London Improv/whatever scene is not entirely 'healthy' due to its inability to get through the doors of certain venues. Unless a member of Sonic Youth is on the bill or something :)

confront reaches all corners of the globe (thanks to all those concerned - you know who you are!), 'foldings' has sold 700+ copies, 'trem' the same, 'unwanted object' is 10 copies off of selling out it's limited edition run of 300. hardly evidence of a scene in survival mode.

Congratulations, Mark. TwoThousandAnd discs are currently available in London from ourselves and Smallfish (and possibly Rough Trade), since Sound 323 told me ages ago that 'we don't take cdr' (how are those hibari discs selling by the way?) and only ever seemed to express interest in our releases when they had Mattin or Ami Yoshida in the line-up.

["I was confused by his implications that he and Graham Halliwell were a part of Eddie Prevost's Workshop, given in my two years or so of regular attendance I never saw them there (Matt Davis? maybe), and no current regulars I've spoken to recall their presence at the workshop either."]

["items such as these really stuck as statements of convenience and promotion rather than of historical fact."]

you seem to be implying that i'm making things up. are you calling me a liar, michael? you're an intelligent guy, give me credit for knowing my own history. in the wire piece, clive bell writes that graham and i met at an eddie prevost workshop. fact. graham, matt and i met and first played together at eddie's workshop at community music, farringdon, on thursday 21st march 1996. at that time the lmc ran a series of workshops led by a different musician each week. eddie has been hosting workshops for a very long time, not just the last two years.

["that period three years ago was a very fertile scene. Mattin was here, Joel Stern, Anthony Guerra, Takehiro Nishide and [huh?] Margarida Garcia."?]

["Margarida's a cool person - no doubt I would have had fun hanging out with her in London, had she ever lived here during that 'fertile' period."]

i was talking about the scene in general, that time period in general and those players in general - i certainly never claimed that margarida had lived here. you're reading stuff into the wire piece that isn't actually there. i knew at the time that she lived in lisbon. i believe margarida was invited here by mattin, who knew her previously. in addition to
the sakada gig, she played a second show in london with takehiro and rhodri. the scene was (in general) made all the more fertile by her time here. maybe she would not have been here atall if it had not been for her connection to mattin. i'm prepared that the mattin/garcia connection is something i could have misinterpreted, you'd have to ask them for the facts. but that doesn't dilute my original statement.

we're going to have to agree to disagree over the state of the current london scene. your considered opinion is largely negative (your phrase) and mine is one of optimism. fair enough. you and i could knock about the pros and cons endlessly. it would perhaps now be more interesting to hear opinions from other london-based bagatellen readers.

["since Sound 323 told me ages ago that 'we don't take cdr' (how are those hibari discs selling by the way?) and only ever seemed to express interest in our releases when they had Mattin or Ami Yoshida in the line-up."]

i remember. that was about 4 years ago and yes, with some exceptions (Mattin and Lucky Rabbit amongst them), that is still very much the case. the hibari cdrs are selling about as well as the mattin and lucky rabbit discs. in addition to the mattin and lucky rabbit releases, you'll be pleased to know that we've also stocked the twothousandand guerra and stern solos, and currently still have copies of the we're breaking up and broken hands discs also in stock.

What Mark should maybe have added, for the sake of clarity, is that although the early Hibari discs were CDRs, recent releases on the label have been factory manufactured CDs. Moreover, one of the reasons for selling Hibari discs at Sound 323 is so that the label, and its roster of musicians, could have representation in London. You, Michael, can sell your CDRs at London gigs, but that option isn't open to Taku Unami except on his very rare visits to the UK. I may be mistaken (and if I am, I apologise), but sour grapes seem to have influenced your comments about Mark Wastell and Sound 323 on this thread.

"although the early Hibari discs were CDRs, recent releases on the label have been factory manufactured CDs."

this isn't quite true, Hibari releases both CD-Rs and CDs, depending on the release. the two most recent (Mattin-Song Book and Neumann/Ressin) are CD-Rs.

I didn't say ALL recent releases, Jon.

. . . but thanks for the clarification :-)

Well I'll just leave you gents to battle it out.. just remember we're all medium sized fish in a small pond. I would however be surprised if the three discs I reviewed above are not available at Sound323, which, with Messrs Wastell & Marley at the helm, is after all THE shop for this kind of music in London, I would have thought.. Rough Trade's cool (if you can FIND the fucking place) but it's not the same, is it? Anyway, I've spent all day listening to the Mattin / Goldie on wmo/r and I feel like one of the animals being tortured in Zoe Broughton's spinechilling field recording from HLS. Fucking scary record.
Mmmm, the Song Book.. well, let's just say you can't like 'em all. What's nice about Mattin, as I just wrote in a review of the disc, is that he's predictably unpredictable :)
Haven't heard the other Hibarin with Neumann yet. What's that like?

Small Fish, which Michael mentioned, is a pretty good shop. It covers quite a wide range of musics, including electronica and reggae. We often send customers their way when SF can supply something readily that we'd have trouble sourcing. Who know, maybe they do the same for us?

As for battling it out . . . this is more a tickle party than a slugfest.

Ok, I'm not a London resident but I consider it to be my local haunt if I want to buy music or attend a concert.

Whilst Mark's original comment of half a dozen gigs to choose between every night may have been slightly optimistic, if I lived closer I personally would find myself at two or three concerts a week.

Between now and the second week of November I will make the trek into town at least ten times for concerts. There isn't always this level of activity, but right now there is plenty of great stuff going on to encourage me to make the two and a half hour round trip often enough

I can confirm there are plenty of CDRs on the shelves at S323, including some of the Two Thousand And discs, of which I have bought more than one. Mark makes a choice what to stock as all of us involved in retail businesses have to do. If he chose not to buy a particular disc Michael that's his decision and for you two to argue in private. Bringing it up here in response to the Wire article really suggests sour grapes, whether that is the case or not.

I have in the recent past commented that I feel the London scene has become a little boring, with only about ten names interesting me regularly, but this is a reflection on my narrowing tastes rather than the amount of music out there.

This is maybe not a good example but tomorrow night's Stockhausen appearance in London has sold out all 500+ tickets at £35 a throw and the LMC Fest (admittedly free tickets) could probably have been filled twice over. The average show still attracts less than 50 people, but I would say this has not changed for many years and things are just as healthy as they have been for a good while.

You guys are lucky to be where you are. In this corner of improvised music, there is virtually NOTHING happening in the southeastern United States. Not surprising, I know, but worth considering if you ever have doubts about the fertility of the scene over there. FWIW, I'd like to do my best in the coming years to affect some change here in Atlanta, but it wouldn't be an easy task. More than likely, I'll end up migrating further up the coast or having to cross an ocean, but then again I'm sure you guys are just dying to hear what shape taomud would assume in the "Dirty Dirty". I digress.
My momma always said, "Shut up and eat your greens. There are people starving all over the world..."

Yes Ryan, agreed, and I am done with this one now.

The other problem with Atlanta of course is that is seems to rain an awful lot... at least that's the impression I get from your rather lovely CD I had playing in the car on the way to work this morning...:)

dan - that mattin / goldie disc is the dogs. i'm playing it again, and again, and again.

brian - the good guys at smallfish do definitely send people up to leafy highgate.

richard - six gigs a night! now that would be something. i said six a week.

ryan g - your mom talks a lotta truth and the truth is sometimes painful to take, especially if it was brocoli.

Mark W - six gigs a night! now that would be something. i said six a week.

Oops apologies, I should learn to read really...

Now if you want to start an argument about broccoli I'm up for the fight... don't you go dissing those lovely green florets....:)

taomud in the dirty dirty? you must all play 808s?

This thread is fascinating to me, because I've always thought of "greens" as leaves, not including other parts of the plant like broccoli florets. But those parts are green too, so this really gives me something to think about. Time for some semantic soul-searching... Just when I thought I was getting cozy with the universe my blanket starts to unravel...

i was talking about the scene in general, that time period in general and those players in general - i certainly never claimed that margarida had lived here. you're reading stuff into the wire piece that isn't actually there.

I guess that’s the trouble with transmission of information. To me it seemed unfortunate to have mention of an Eddie Prevost workshop followed immediately by names of people coming out of the Eddie Prevost Workshop that started in 2000. A misleading association, which may be editorial and difficult to gauge when laying it down, but as I read it my brain made the proverbial "What, What??"

i believe margarida was invited here by mattin, who knew her previously. in addition to the sakada gig, she played a second show in london with takehiro and rhodri. the scene was (in general) made all the more fertile by her time here. maybe she would not have been here atall if it had not been for her connection to mattin. i'm prepared that the mattin/garcia connection is something i could have misinterpreted, you'd have to ask them for the facts.

She also played the Bonnington with Anthony and Takehiro, the Klinker with myself and Anthony, and the Foundry with the same. She stayed at Anthony’s while in London. The Sakada gig was most certainly via Mattin. I can’t remember which came first, but around a similar time to Mattin's Lisbon visit, myself, Joel Stern, Anthony, and Take made friends on a trip to Lisbon. We also brought over our friends Manuel Mota and Pedro Lourenco earlier in the year. To mention one name of someone who ‘in general’ added to the London scene by a week’s visit when everyone else mentioned actually lived in London seems really out of context. One might as well have said Tetuzi Akiyama was there, too.

-----

What Mark should maybe have added, for the sake of clarity, is that although the early Hibari discs were CDRs, recent releases on the label have been factory manufactured CDs. Moreover, one of the reasons for selling Hibari discs at Sound 323 is so that the label, and its roster of musicians, could have representation in London. You, Michael, can sell your CDRs at London gigs, but that option isn't open to Taku Unami

Mark makes a choice what to stock as all of us involved in retail businesses have to do. If he chose not to buy a particular disc Michael that's his decision

i remember. that was about 4 years ago and yes, with some exceptions (Mattin and Lucky Rabbit amongst them), that is still very much the case. the hibari cdrs are selling about as well as the mattin and lucky rabbit discs.

TwoThousandAnd didn’t properly exist 4 years ago, so I don’t know what I would have had to offer, but it sounds like I’m better off with Smallfish anyway ;-)

Many distributors internationally and every shop in London with whom we deal have operated on a Sale Or Return basis. The financial risk is ours, as we gotta chase up sales later on. Sound 323’s rejection of my enquiry because ‘we don’t take cdr’ stuck very hard in my memory as no one had ever turned us down on that basis. A friend who worked in a record shop abroad even said to us flatly ‘I doubt I can sell these, but I’ll take some SOR’ because he wanted to help us out and support our output. As for the argument that we have more opportunites to sell in London than a label like Hibari, that is true, but I can't imagine any record shop operating on that kind of logic. For example, I don't see Downtown Music Gallery thinking it's not worth stocking New York artists because they might damage import sales, and they've got other places to go anyway.

I can’t recall all the details of stocking the other discs you mention, Mark. I don’t see them online and they all predate GORA/lucky rabbit (admittedly more predate than follow at this stage). I believe they came as part of the package with those two discs, but I can’t remember.

I can confirm there are plenty of CDRs on the shelves at S323, including some of the Two Thousand And discs, of which I have bought more than one.

Awesome! How much does Mark owe us? :)

****For the record, we have two manufactured CD releases, one being the new Lucky Hands disc (though some reviews have marked it as CDR still. Talk about stigma!)

-----

My main concern is with perception. I’ve debated elsewhere in the past on the issue of simply being a London-based musician and what that (sometimes painfully) means if I travel abroad and get billed as ‘London Improv’. Views of any scene will be kaleidoscopic, but given that Mark’s assessment of London and his correction of Dan’s assessment relate to a review of TwoThousandAnd discs, I felt obliged to offer my own corrections. If Mark is going to boast sales figures of Confront discs under a discussion of our new releases, I’ll give our perspective in return. People reading Mark’s ‘optimistic’ views alone would not be receiving a full perspective, and not getting the perspective of TwoThousandAnd, which is the basis of this thread. The taste of sour grapes may depend on one’s own predilections, which I don’t expect to be changed overnight.

-M

You guys are lucky to be where you are. In this corner of improvised music, there is virtually NOTHING happening in the southeastern United States.

I’ve never bought into the ‘you should be so lucky argument’ that some friends of mine try to assuage me with. There are great plusses to the Southeastern US. For one, the weather’s waaay better :) There’s a greater amount of appreciation sometimes down there, because it is more scarce. People here, and in other big cities can be very apathetic and lazy. I always liked hanging out with friends in the South who are in to so many things. Here because you could live on Improv alone (you may look a little jaundiced if you did!) some people just can’t relate to other musics. Lots of things don’t come to London actually, because of the expense, which I mentioned before. And lots of touring gigs you would see in the South for $5 will probably cost £10 or £15 in London, so you end up seeing less anyway. (Good thing LMC Fest is free, as I’ll be spending £30 on three nights of Atlantic Waves later on! November is looking to be an oasis month for London in 2005 . . .)

I was hoping to do a tour down to Atlanta this year, but it didn't materialize.

Atlanta’s better off than Memphis, though! I grew up there, and lived in Chapel Hill for four years. I admit that the opportunities aren’t so abundant, but I did find more time to focus on music, partly because of things like working for higher rent, not having easy/cheap access to rehearsal space, and at least an hour taken out of every day commuting. London’s very good for access to other cities; it’s sometimes more useful as a ‘base of operations.’ As a teenager I though D.C. was Mecca, then I learned it’s not all that superior to Memphis. I hope no one thinks I’m calling London inferior. I’d love more people to take up residence here. I think Mark would agree that the opportunities exist to come in and add to what’s going on. Like any place, we’re all in the shit together!

Hi all,
This thread has generated a pathetic bout of product and positioning-related jostling that is so typical of our time and associations. Although I remain unconvinced of the merits of this medium in some ways, perhaps - with an eye on transparency - I can in posting help push the focus of the ill-tempered imbalance above, across to other considerations.

I write to clarify firstly that some of the influences Dan discerns within the recording at the head of the unpleasant discourse above are in my case at least, sometimes seriously wide of the mark.

He is correct to observe that experimental purity of process is the serious concern, and that critical engagement with the world I live in, including with humour, is both central and parallel to that. But I’m sorry to say that there is no influence whatever from Morphogenesis, Terry Day or Steve Beresford, and unfortunately, in using a word like ‘whimsy’ Dan then demonstrates a lack of knowledge of what he’s writing about, in a fashion rather similar I’m afraid to that of the chump who reviewed last year’s Freedom of the City festival for Paris Transatlantic, a piece as uninformed as it was unnecessarily chauvinistic. Of course, it also brought to mind some excellent contributions from Joe Morris in the recent Manieri thread on Bags that neatly summed up the differences between some musicians and some self-appointed online critics and marketing experts.

I’m not ‘influenced’ by so-called 'lowercase' improvisation at all either, whether ‘Off Site-style’, German or any other, although I have found that playing with ‘lowercase’ influenced musicians occasionally delivers good results.

Any interest in Off Site has been mainly through the manner in which the identity and parameters of a space (the art gallery in question, located as it was in a quiet residential street of terraced houses) and the associated and dignified mutual human agreements around privacy and prevention of nuisance in Japanese society, influenced the musical results of the activity there. Tokyo people live much closer to each other than Londoners or Parisians (for example) and the construction of their low-rise family houses is lightweight and permeable, for reasons that, I have heard it said, may be connected with the Tokyo earthquake disaster of 1923. Perhaps too, as an Irish person, I have some sympathy with a Japanese person's considered response to their country’s strange combination of sudden technocracy and a deep sense of history.

You could infer a connection between this and the manner in which the first Lucky Rabbit record was mainly recorded in domestic environments - and perhaps also with the warmly intimate and un-theatrical Resonance FM performance space. But it might be more accurate simply to draw a dotted connecting-line (for me at least) with Derek Bailey’s cassette-letter to Martin Davidson, ‘The last post’ - recorded in his own kitchen - although the connection at the time was intuitive rather than overt.

(Coincidently, we played this piece - from the ‘In who’s tradition?’ recording, EMANEM Records - on Saturday night on ‘Coin on the track’ www.coinonthetrack.com, the fortnightly web-cast radio show that Michael, myself, Seymour Wright and Sebastian Lexer produce in collaboration for ResonanceFM).

Moving back to Dan's first sentence, whilst it may not be me that he suspects of harbouring a Fahey influence, I might as well tell you that I heard my first John Fahey record only last year, having already played improvised music exclusively for almost 20 years before doing so. I have never heard Connors (who is this ‘Connors’ by the way - you can’t mean Bill Connors can you, Dan?) and I am not at all influenced by Roger Smith. In fact, to be frank, avoiding the influence of others comes rather naturally, although I did go through a period of transcribing and learning James Blood Ulmer compositions many years ago.

As for the currency of the London improvising scene, like Mark I think it would be strange to call it anything short of flourishing and highly influential.

The more established and classicised models of improvised music here are to my mind approaching the end of a period of flux and development that is connected positively with the keen interest from young artists of both sexes in the dissenting, politically-aware UK improvised music tradition. This new popular (or relatively so) awareness stems straightforwardly from current conditions in art practice and the teaching establishments.

But the listings and calculations of associated goods and products that followed Dan’s article - designed I can only guess, to defend and assert respectively market position and quality and worth - I found dispiriting and childish. Sebastian and I have just done a couple of radio shows (under the banner of ‘packaging’) that contrasted current focuses on product and producer-led (including artist as ‘brand’) improvised music, with that which is process-led and this thread really sums up a lot of what we were saying. Sales figures and quantity of product never equals worth guys, I thought you would have known that, given the field of artistic endeavour you have chosen.

From my own standpoint, I have generally distanced myself from discourses connected with the London scene’s transformation that have been attention-seeking, opportunistic or unnecessary competitive. In my view, any regeneration - if I can put it like that - here, has been influenced less by the influx of musicians from a number of other countries that coincidentally appeared in the same place a few years ago, than on the equally sudden appearance of a new group of UK and UK-based improvisers that appeared almost fully-formed around the same time. To upset the neat and simplified marketing-speak that seems to be going on around me, it is the case that these two groups, mutually, have both shaped and been shaped by each other and by the learning and experiences they have shared, which they have then taken on to their places of origin, habitation and further travel.

I don't understand the disdain, bordering on moral disapproval, for CDRs. I have no idea whether recent improv purchases I have made were produced in a factory or burned-to-order at home. How do people know? Why do they care?

This morning I heard a rumour that the Sussex may be being turned into a gastropub and could well cease being a live music venue come the new year. Hopefully it's just a rumour.

"I’m sorry to say that there is no influence whatever from Morphogenesis, Terry Day or Steve Beresford, and unfortunately, in using a word like ‘whimsy’ Dan then demonstrates a lack of knowledge of what he’s writing about"
Sorry then I wasted three or four hours of my life listening carefully to your album and its predecessor three times, not to mention the evening several months ago when we actually played together.
"the chump who reviewed last year’s Freedom of the City festival for Paris Transatlantic, a piece as uninformed as it was unnecessarily chauvinistic."
His name's Wayne Spencer, and though I don't agree with everything he says / writes I'd be the first to defend his right to say it.
"the differences between some musicians and some self-appointed online critics and marketing experts."
I wonder which camp you're putting me in then, Ross.
"Coincidently, we played this piece - from the ‘In who’s tradition?’ recording, EMANEM Records - on Saturday night on ‘Coin on the track’ www.coinonthetrack.com, the fortnightly web-cast radio show that Michael, myself, Seymour Wright and Sebastian Lexer produce in collaboration for ResonanceFM"
That reads very much like a pathetic bout of product and positioning-related jostling to me.
"who is this ‘Connors’ by the way - you can’t mean Bill Connors can you, Dan?"
Loren Connors, but I don't suppose you've ever heard of him.
"I am not at all influenced by Roger Smith."
I didn't say you were.

Dan
Whimsy doesn't come into my music and the other influences you detected are not present.

I equally defend Wayne's right to say it, but it was inaccurate.

No, you're right, I've never heard of Loren but will now look them up.

Thanks of course for listening to our stuff - I remember your review of the Lucky Rabbit recording was the only one that was really on the ball and I said so at the time. I enjoyed playing with and meeting you that night earlier this year and I will continue to value your engagement with my process.

But I have now provided some better information than was previously the case.

Regards
Ross

Matt,
The ‘disdain’ you describe does seem common. It derives from yet another current transformation process, concerning the resources required to publish; who controls them; whether agent or the artist is doing the publishing and how this all affects judgement of worth in the world.

It was high publishing costs and agent control that generally kept the ‘riff-raff’ out in the past and this position is analogous to the publishing industry’s standard position of rubbishing self-published writing. But look at how that area of art is being transformed in a manner similar to our own field.

Today's hugely increased mobility and access to production exposes those ideas as a form of risk management deriving mainly from concerns about protecting interests and influence. I like this fine when it is about conserving livelihoods (building families, developing infrastructure, using a long-term approach) but I’m less comfortable with some other aspects and implications. I personally feel this is a 'no-win' area of discussion.
Regards

[Ross] But I’m sorry to say that there is no influence whatever from Morphogenesis, Terry Day or Steve Beresford, and unfortunately, in using a word like ‘whimsy’ Dan then demonstrates a lack of knowledge of what he’s writing about...

[Ross] Whimsy doesn't come into my music and the other influences you detected are not present.

[Mike] The first statement strikes me as a gratuitous and irrational insult to Dan, and the second clarifies the misinterpretation of what he wrote in the review. Isn't Dan entitled to his own perception of something as "whimsical"? As for "influences", the only thing Dan cited as an influence was "Off-Site style Japanese lowercase", an influence you attempt to deny, but then essentially acknowledge. Why on earth someone would attempt to deny the influence of musicians they've had substantial collaborations with is beyond me. The other references were not cited as "influences"; clearly they are cited for the sake of describing and analyzing the music in terms of Dan's experience and viewpoint and carry no implication of having a direct relationship to your aesthetic development. You seem to have completely missed this distinction between historical analysis (influence) and aesthetic analysis (the listener's experience). Unfortunately, in misreading Dan and trying to discredit his opinion and perception, your remarks demonstrate little more than a musician's ego caught in a huff.

On other hand, I do agree with your points about the silliness of some of the comments above dealing with "good and products" and marketing. At the same time, though, I also believe that the product (the resulting piece of music regardless of how it was made) aspect of improv is at least as important as the process (the experience of it creation) aspect, and I think it's sad that people still try to reduce things to a mythology of process.

I know Bags threads have an alarming tendency to degenerate into slanging matches, which can be fun (but not for long); let's not this one not go that way - I should take a leaf out of Condi Rice's book and avoid email altogether (or sites like this, unless Ms Rice has secretly been digging the Tilbury thread.. she is after all a rather good pianist, so I've heard).
Apologies then to Ross about the snotty Loren Connors remark (though I daresay he'll find something to relate to in Loren's music). The word "influence" is a loaded one, for sure - saying so and so is "influenced" by another musician doesn't imply for me that so and so is consciously trying to rip off another musician he knows about - it's just my own way of saying "I hear this and that in the music".. For the benefit of other Bags readers who weren't there, Ross was one of a visiting crew of Londoners who came over to Paris a few months back to play with the members of Hubbub (Fred Blondy, Jean-Luc Guionnet, Bertrand Denzler, Jean Sé Mariage and Edward Perraud) at Atelier Tampon, one of a few venues in Paris willing to put on a gig of this kind of music. I remember standing at the bar (haha, that's usually where I am but never mind) during Ross's set and talking to Edward, who leaned over and whispered "typically British.." What he was referring to was a sense of openness and playfulness that's often lacking in local improv here in Paris - especially Hubbub, a particularly intense crew who have their own very well-defined way about doing what they do - I rather fancy he was referring more to what Sebastian Lexer was doing to the house piano, but I can't recall for sure. Perhaps Jacques Oger (who I'm sure was there) can remember more. Goodness knows why Edward invited me to play along, anarchic bruiser that I am - that's another story. Going back to "whimsical", I certainly didn't the adjective to be taken as pejorative - I was using it in the sense of the dictionary definition below:
adj : determined by chance or impulse or whim rather than by necessity or reason; Erratic in behavior or degree of unpredictability
I can see why Ross might take offence at the "erratic" connotation, but the "degree of unpredictability" aspect is something I value enormously in improvised music, and something I find quite frequently in the work of the people I cited in the first para of the above review. It's also something I often find lacking in today's improv, which has become rather grey and formulaic. Would there were more groups around willing to take a few risks.
Anyway, I'd be interested to know how Anthony, Seymour and Michael react to that. For now, cease fire. (Or pursue the matter through private emails: you know where to find me..)
I'd be interested to know exactly what Ross found "chauvinistic" in Wayne's review of FOTC 2004. By Wayne's standards it was quite a laidback piece!
This was the paragraph he wrote on Ross's performance (the full text is consultable at http://www.paristransatlantic.com/magazine/monthly2004/06jun_text.html#2
The second set of the day was by The World Book (photo, left), a trio made-up of Ross Lambert (guitar), John Lely (computer) and Seymour Wright (alto sax). The group distributed in advance copies of a set of encyclopaedia entries on the subject of 'freedom'. These texts seemed to be Cold War-era ideological apologies for liberal capitalism. What relationship they had to the music was unclear. Also unclear were the links between the music and the still photographs projected onto a screen behind the group. As for the music itself, this was sadly disappointing. The group clearly aspired to explore sonorities and principles of construction falling outside of the established pathways of acoustic free improvisation, but what ensued was too often an undisciplined rummaging through sonic hypotheses entertained with scant regard to their potential as profitable avenues for musical expression and pursued with too little attempt to combine the individual players' efforts into a meaningful collective whole."
For Wayne, that's pretty lowkey!
Anyway, enough of the ping pong - I should warn you Ross that I will be posting the same review in a month's time over at PT. That leaves you plenty of time to get your "Digusted, Tunbridge Wells" letter prepared - and listen to a few Mazzacane Connors albums to boot!

Dear Michael,
You are right to point out the differences between a producer's and a consumer's 'influences' when they are engaging with the same performance and thanks for the clarification. I'll admit that the words I used do read slightly more critical of Dan than originally intended. Apologies Dan.

I spoke of the nature of my interest in Off Site rather than acknowledging it as having had an influence on my aesthetic development, which it hasn't. I know exactly what path my own aesthetic development has followed.

And I did not intend to imply that I felt the end result (of group improvisation) isn't centrally important - I do. However I couldn't use your description of process-based art practice as 'mythology' either. I probably feel that it's the nature of the approach to process that contributes most to whether or not the end result can be adjudged good or successful.
Ross

Dan, hmm, okay, enough. You've picked up my dislike of this word 'whimsy' and I now see you meant in the sense 'unpredictable'. This is ok by me in the sense that I suppose the connections between different parts of certain performances may not always be as obvious to audience members as they are to the performer.

Wayne's description of The World Book is as I remembered it. It's true that some people there just didn't get it, but there were others present whose honesty of opinion I respect, who commented on the performance's merit and their personal enjoyment. I considered pointing this out to PT at the time and have now done so.

Ross

Anyway, I'd be interested to know how Anthony, Seymour and Michael react to that

Personally I don't feel any Off-Site/lowercase influences. I don't see so many on the album either, but understand how one would perceive them, especially given -as Dan points out- the last lucky rabbit disc had Yoshida et al taking part. Despite 'lowercase' having always been a dirty word in my book, the statement didn't seem so unfounded to annoy me.

I assumed the post-Fahey/post-Connors comments referred to mine and Anthony's parts. I don't really know any Fahey songs, but I've heard his stuff a couple times, and I know Connors allright, only got one album (Grubbs/Connors on Hapna-really nice). Funny, coz I don't know who Roger Smith is, and I've never heard Morphogenesis. But could I be expected to know the British names more than the Americans? Well, if I'm typically British . . . :)

I thought the Lucky Hands disc did a good job of mixing some different styles, using the particular varieties each player could bring to the mix, but keeping things as a whole. So what about 'whimsical'? Some unpredictability in there, definitely. But everything was necessary, if ya know what I mean! Perhaps it's that connotation of whimsical (that it lacks purpose) that itched Ross?

I think Ross is great at using his abilities to both deploy a guitar abstractly and play it straight up jazz/blues/rock style. It does add that flavour of unpredictability, and works excellently when coupled with someone like Tetuzi Akiyama on guitar. He is one of the least-boring musicians I know. I wasn't at the World Book set, so I can neither confirm nor deny Wayne's comments. I didn't think that section of the review was out of line, though. There will always be some people who like a set, and some people who don't. Had the entire room responded with a standing ovation, a negative review would need some extra justification.

Despite the off-placement of Ross's plug for Coin On The Track, I assure you it's a quality programme! I humbly invite all musicians, labels, etc to send us stuff in any format for the show. There's already some audio and playlists on the show's site to check out. We're relatively new, so things are just taking off.

And in plug territory again - but this time it brings us right back to the top of the page. The sold-out Iberian Tour and Plastic discs are available as mp3s in the Listen section of TwoThousandAnd.com.
Try to figure out what Takehiro Nishide's playing on those tracks!!! (I can email a photo for clues...)

M

Thanks Michael,
While a standing ovation does imply a high level of engagement with an occasion, it does not necessarily contain any connotation of musical merit.

I'll settle for 'least-boring' and sign off!

Best
Ross