"Comparisons have been drawn between this set and other long-form releases such as Morton Feldman’s String Quartet No.2, or the lengthier works of LaMonte Young, but for me these comparisons are relatively meaningless. Listening right through to Feldman’s SQ2 is a test of endurance."
Well, I can agree with that -
http://www.paristransatlantic.com/magazine/monthly2002/02feb_text.html#7
but it's much easier at home with the discs.

"The challenge lies with remaining focused on music that changes very little over its lengthy duration."
Are you talking about the Feldman? If so, I have to disagree. You could get away with saying that about stretches "Piano and String Quartet" but not SQ2. The changes take their time, but the piece is almost always on the move.
"That need for endurance is perhaps more evident with Young, where listeners almost have to transcend the music to reach an elevated state of concentration to make it through the work."
Well, yes, to 'get inside the drone' as LM says.
"This is not the case with the ErstLive quartet. The music constantly evolves across the three discs, pulling itself apart and rebuilding itself."
I don't find the listening discipline required to approach Feldman or LMY to be all that different, to be honest. Nobody concentrates 100% on anything for 4 hours - inevitably there are times when the mind wanders, like the music. "If the mind wander, let it" - Cage. I found this set a very beautiful piece of work. Bravo to all concerned. Review to come shortly at the other place.

Richard, thanks for your perceptive review, it's right on the button. ErstLive 005 is one of the strongest items in the Erstwhile catalogue, a quite remarkable piece of work. One of the things that's most pleasing about the music is how consistently taut it is, especially over such a long span of time, how the intensity level fluctuates (deliberately rather than through indecision, weariness or lapses of attention) but never lets up. Hence the best way to gain a true measure of its worth is to set aside enough time to listen to it in a single sitting.

Dan, thanks for your comments. I've gone back and listened to some of the Feldman again this morning and you are correct. My wording should probably have read 'music that changes very slowly over its lengthy duration' rather than 'music that changes very little'.

The reason for my attempted contrast with Feldman and Young is that I found the Erstlive quartet far easier to concentrate upon than the other two. I actually have managed to focus 100% on the quartet right the way through several times now with very little effort. I agree with you that this level of concentration is usually nigh on impossible.

I think Brian's comments sum up why I find it easier to involve myself with the Erst. There is a constantly evolving shape to the music but it continually involves you at an almost emotional level.
The best analogy I can come up with is with literature, there are great works of art that are a real struggle to read and others that suck you in and you can't out the book down until the final page.

Dan and Brian I await the reviews from your considerably more proficient and experienced pens at PTA and The Wire with great expectation and interest.

[Richard] This situation brings to mind images of the master calligrapher creating beautiful forms with the most minimal swoops of his brush, but in this case taking a fully realised Rothko as his starting canvas...

[Mike] My what a beautiful thought that was!

Good work Richard, one of the few full on reviews of this set out there. When I read it last night, my initial thoughts were almost identical to Dan's w/r/t Feldman's long form works. So instead I'll bring up the other thing that sprang to mind.

"The challenge for the listener, then, is to try and make sense of the work as a whole, pulling together nearly four hours of abstract audio collage into one meaningful experience"

Why exactly is this the challenge for the listener? Remembering that this is a document of a live performance I think that one should cast oneself into the perspective of an audience member for a moment. Can a participant of a performance as it unfolds before them ever "try and make sense of the work as a whole"? I argue that a concert attendee is in the moment, reacting to the events as the happen. And this is the perspective that I choose to take while listening to the set. Like you I prefer to listen to it in one fell swoop, but I have also chosen to listen to it (twice now) one disc a day for three days. This format emphasizes taking the music as its presented and in the moment.

Of course that being said any attempt to quantify the set as a whole, i.e. "ErstLive 005 is one of the strongest items in the Erstwhile catalogue, a quite remarkable piece of work" - Brian above, does require meeting your challenge.

Wow, the questions here following the review are identical to mine, particularly regarding the String Quartet #2 comments. But I also understand what Richard is saying. My intro to the Feldman piece came at a time where I had all sorts of time on my hands to experience and absorb music of such length, so it's beauty and strengths are quite deep in memory.

Richard's "challenge" is exactly my challenge, though maybe for different reasons. As someone who loves new strains of music and improvisation I also rarely have the time or full attention span that should be available to absorb something like EL005. Very frustrating. That's not to say that any transcendant moments I accidentally catch will be lost on me. But to be as objective as possible (as Richard's opportunities to listen repeatedly have allowed him to be) requires more than an active interest in "checking it out".

Good piece, Richard.

I share the general enthusiasm. For my bucks, the final 40-50 minutes of the set is some of the deepest, purest music I've heard since the Doris session. I still find the discs problematic to listen to, in a sense, because I've yet to desire hearing them apart from each other! One of the stronger sensations I get is that of a constant paring, a relentless whittling down, always making choices as to what really needs to be there: not this, not this, this, not this, this, not this, not this until arriving at that bleak and beautiful plateau.

Hatta- "Why exactly is this the challenge for the listener? Remembering that this is a document of a live performance I think that one should cast oneself into the perspective of an audience member for a moment"

Hi Hatta, thanks for your comments. Firstly, i guess you don't HAVE to take up the challenge of understanding the four hour work as a whole, listening as you have to single discs at a time no doubt brings new perspectives to the music and quite frankly finding four spare hours free isnt exactly easy for most of us.

As I tried to explain in my review, IMHO there is a lot extra to be gained from listening right the way through if that time can be invested, the final disc was a much more rewarding listen to me when it was immediately preceeded by the first two.

I don't however necessarily agree with your comments I have quoted above. This is indeed a document of a live performance, not the live performance itself.

As has been seen from many releases in the past (particularly it seems with "eai" music), the recordings that result from live concerts once edited and tweaked often sound nothing like the concert itself. Various MIMEO releases are testament to this, my memory of the long MIMEO show at the Serpentine London does not come even faintly close to the recording that was released afterwards.

I am not sure why I would want to place myself in the mind of the audience member. This is improvised music and I don't think it would sound any different if the four musicians had been alone in a studio recording rather than having an audience present. I totally agree that a live concert is a very different experience to listening to a CD but in this case I am indeed sat at home listening to a CD. What matters to me is the music recorded on the discs and my individual relationship to it.

Thanks again for your comments, indeed my inspiration for writing the review was pretty much because noone else seemed to be interested in doing it, and I personally think this is too good a piece of music to slip by without proper appraisal.

" listening as you have to single discs at a time no doubt brings new perspectives to the music and quite frankly finding four spare hours free isnt exactly easy for most of us."

Well just to be totally clear I also prefer listening to it in its entirety and have done so 3 or 4 times. I deliberately chose to listen to it broken up just for that specific experience. And actually as I work as a programmer (long hours) it isn't that hard for me to listen to music for hours on end - as long as I can handle the occasional interruption :)

"I am not sure why I would want to place myself in the mind of the audience member. This is improvised music and I don't think it would sound any different if the four musicians had been alone in a studio recording rather than having an audience present."

My point on that in case I wasn't clear was that I think that is a valuable way to approach live improvised music. When it is being experienced live one can't attempt to experience it as a whole. By all means approach this however you want, but I prefer an in the moment approach and the analogy to its actual live performance is instructive. As for the difference between studio and live, well I direct you to ask any musician you may know about that and I think you will find sharp disagreement. Musicians get energy from their audience among many other things.

"I am not sure why I would want to place myself in the mind of the audience member. This is improvised music and I don't think it would sound any different if the four musicians had been alone in a studio recording rather than having an audience present."

I believe that the exact opposite must be true. This is improvised music and it would therefore sound different if any aspect of the context in which it was created was different. A single piece of improvised music is the culmination of an infinite number of factors that determine the specific situation surrounding the performance. The piece would therefore be completely different without an audience, or if it were played/created in a different room, or on a different day, or if the musicians had all eaten delicious turkey and cheese sandwiches immediately beforehand. This is part of the appeal of improvisation.

Also: though it would have been incredible to be in the audience of this performance, I quite appreciate the at-home listening experience. During long live sets where intense focus is required, I usually become tired after about two hours. At home, however, I can do things while listening that would be terribly indecorous if the musicians were actually there in front of me (--lounging on the couch, drinking a soda, casually paging through a magazine, etc.). Last weekend, I participated in a six hour long improvisation with forty musicians rotating in and out on one constant piece of music, and holy crap was it exhausting. And I'm sure it was equally exhausting for audience members who actually stuck it out for the entire duration.

Thanks for your comments guys, read with great interest. My perspective as purely a listener is clearly very different to that of a musician. I tend to place my interest in whatever comes out of the speaker either at home or at a gig and the subtleties of what may be affecting the way the music sounds are possibly lost to me.

Thinking about it, this is probably why conversations discussing the merits of improv rather than composition always bore me. My interests lie with the music I get to experience.

Mind you I can understand how turkey and cheese sandwiches would effect the performance, I'm not sure I could do anything salient after that experience, Yuk! :)

I slept on this whole concept of trying to listen as if I was at the concert last night. The more I think about it, the more daft a proposition it seems anyway. I actually don't think I listen differently wherever I am. I sit and try and focus as best I can whether at home or at a show.

Maybe if I found a really uncomfortable seat to sit on and hired a stranger to sit behind me and cough annoyingly at intervals it would work!:)

Make sure the stranger also has terrible body odour and a fashionista friend with little interest in the music but lots to say about the musicians' crummy concert-wear.

Oh, and somebody listening endlessly to Crazy Frog on their iPod.

And if the Crazy Frog is not familiar to anyone outside of the UK, it is most definately NOT a reference to Noeal Akchote..!:)

Sachiko M -- What a talent!

Should we take your comment literally or are you taking the Psss?

Yes I mean it literally -- what an amazing musician she is -- a true master of her instrument. And I want to add that its even better to listen to the entire set twice or even three times in a single sitting before you can fully fathom its power. Also I find its best to sit naked on a wood chair facing a blank wall while listening.

Yeah, I remember my first beer too.

I'm taking up the challenge as well. I just moved into a new and much larger apt with a room I've dedicated almost entirely to listening/study of music (never had this luxury before), and I've inaugurated it with this one. I'd say the audience does figure into the experience at pivital moments--check out the opening moments for folk-punctuated footstep austerity and expectancy.
zimdhumn has a silent N yaknow, I never knew!

You're right, Marc, the opening moments of the set, during which some audience members are still making their way to their seats and settling down, followed by a hush of anticipation, contributes a great deal to the atmosphere of the recording. The fact that the audience is, thereafter, remarkably quiet, testifies to how in thrall they were to the music. But you're always conscious of the presence of the audience; you can sense the tension in the performance space.

The audience was quiet because it was very small and half of the people were sleeping.

hey psss, what about posting under your own name? or is there just an "i" missing? c'mon kid, bring it on.

"The audience was quiet because it was very small and half of the people were sleeping."

Don't be a fuckwit. If you've got something useful to add, let's hear it. If not, Psss off.

'hey psss, what about posting under your own name?'

what are you scared of in not knowing who said it? anonymity is good for the soul.

p.s. why did you make the same joke as someone else in the thread?

p.s.s. it's okay to sleep. like at a noh performance, complimentary almost...

"p.s. why did you make the same joke as someone else in the thread?"

hmm, let's see: because i didn't read it? oh and by the way: fuck you too.

I perhaps shouldn't rise to the bait, but I was at the concert and there were plenty of people there and none of them were sleeping. In fact, we were on the edge of our seats, especially during the last three quarters of an hour. I've just listened to the 3cds all the way through and the tension of disc three is difficult to shake off, even half an hour later.

PS Hello Brian, long time no see!

Hmm... I was lucky enough to be there, and I admit I dozed off a bit during the performance (give me a break... I was tired after the train lag of an all night trip to berlin, coupled with the fact i like to listen with my eyes closed).

at any rate I thought being able to move around (and not just stay on the edge of your seat) was a huge plus... it took place in this huge room, where you could wander around and listen in different areas (the inside of the bathroom was quite nice, i thought). that included listening while lying on these cushions set up under the windows. I enjoy dozing to music... that half awake/half asleep state.

Another thing with the environment, was that at for the first hour, the sun was still out, and the room was pretty well lit... I'm sure the contrasting light levels played a role in what the players were doing.

Also, Otomo played a lot of guitar, if i remember correctly.

Lastly, for me, the best part of the set was the simple fact that it was four hours long... I lost all sense of time, and the music just went on and on, blocking everything else out. (though i guess if the music itself wasn't as good, I would have wanted to end).

Fascinating Chris, the point about listening to music between sleep and waking. This music lends itself quite well to such pursuits--sounds appearing, lingering, vanishing, seemingly without trace, maybe never having been there at all ... and hell yeah, listening to music with eyes closed is the only way! :)

Nice to see Bags has found its way back to the classic format mixing intelligent exchanges with vile expletives. And Tomas Korber seemed such a nice chap when I met him :)

In what language is "zimdhumn" a "vile expletive"?

Tomas, my 'fuckwit' comment wasn't directed at you. That's why I included the asinine Psss quote, to show what I was responding to.

hey brian - i know!! no worries, i got that right.

dan warburton seemed like a sober guy when i met him, that is... before i saw him drink 4 glasses of red wine within 10 minutes. ha!

last time i walked // through the province of zimdhumn // the leaves were dark green

Hard to believe that you guys are so invested in this that you can't see what a joke it is. There is so much amazing music out there .. why are you guys wasting your precious time with this non-music? Life is short. From my point of view its like being in a museum and blindly walking by all the masterpieces in order to spend countless hours staring at a fire extinguisher.

FWIW, I did once spend about a half-hour enjoying the ceiling grate above a fire extinguisher at the MoMA instead of all the "masterpieces" in the room... Clay, in the 1950s there was this guy named John... Then there was this woman named Pauline, and... Well, nevermind. Five seconds of reflection is enough for you to know that art/beauty/pleasure/whatever is in your mind and nowhere else. That said, the sort of music being discussed here is much closer to Rhapsody in Blue than 4'33". It's up to you to implement the topography of this continuum.

You know, now that there is a whole slew of dubious comment, I'm more inspired than I ever would be otherwise to check out this set. If so much confusion is inspired by a slab of improvisation, it has to be worth sinking one's teeth into!

Oh, and that wasn't a slag on the reviewer or ability to express - I thought the review very informative - electronics aren't usually my cup of tea, is all I'm saying.

Clay: "Hard to believe that you guys are so invested in this that you can't see what a joke it is. There is so much amazing music out there .. why are you guys wasting your precious time with this non-music?."

Just because you don't get it, Clay, doesn't mean there's nothing to get.

[Clifford]- If so much confusion is inspired by a slab of improvisation, it has to be worth sinking one's teeth into!

Not sure there is much confusion here Clifford, just a healthy discussion around the finer points of some great music broken up every now and again by an anonymous idiot that quite frankly hasnt deserved the time people wasted on him.
The point of this piece (my first review) was to encourage discussion that I thought wasn't happening in a worthwhile and important cd release. I'd like to thank the percentage of people here that took the time to read it and then share their opinions in a constructive manner.

Oh and yes, go but the discs, you may be pleasantly surprised!

oh yes and great review richard. hope to read more of your thoughts on music here and elsewhere.

After several listenings in very quiet conditions (though fully clothed and not staring at the wall), I amused myself yesterday by taking this on the road on the mp3 player, to find out how well it fits in with the ambient acoustic of urban life en route to work. Very well indeed! I was struck once more by the exquisite pacing of the events, a real sense of rhythmic flow (slow though) and architecture. Sorry you haven't found a way into it yet, Clay - and maybe a four-hour piece isn't the best way (though I seriously wonder from what you say if you've heard this at all: after all, why would you invest in a 3CD set of something you don't consider as music?.. Or maybe you stole it..). What other Erst or non-Erst albums might other Baganauts recommend to neophytes? I think I'd suggest Brackwater myself.

Burkhard Stangl & Christof Kurzman's 'Schnee' (Erstwhile 008) has always been a favourite of mine. Likewise Keith Rowe & John Tilbury's 'Duos for Doris' (Erstwhile 030). Of Erstless items: AMM's 'Newfoundland' (Matchless 23) and I.S.O.'s 'Gravity Clock' (Amoebic ISO-01) get my vote. All of these CDs are superbly accomplished and really rather attractive.

thanks, dan. one i'd also recommend to start with is "i'm happy if you are happy" by müller/sugimoto because it has a rather low fire-extinguisher-factor (FEF). another personal favorite is the first filament disc on extreme. but that one's nothing for clay - gets 9 out of 10 on the FEF scala.

Some weeks back when Erstlive005 was released, the folks at DMG (a record store in NYC) told me they'd been playing it in-store and some of the frequencies (bass?) blew out one of their speakers? Like, destroyed it—out to the trash! Just a curious anecdote to throw in.

I continue to be struck by the last track of the second disc--that's some of the most intense music i've heard on any taomud record, rowe/biens included!

"the folks at DMG (a record store in NYC) told me they'd been playing it in-store and some of the frequencies (bass?) blew out one of their speakers? Like, destroyed it—out to the trash! Just a curious anecdote to throw in."

just to clarify, it was the third disc that did this, so those who have heard the box can imagine how high they had it cranked to do actual damage.

Lupop, could you explain the term "taomud" for me? I'm totally mystified. TIA!!

new term to use in place of "eai", it simply stands for "the area of music under discussion", coined by Sergio Zamora on Jazz Corner. I like it.

"new term to use in place of "eai", it simply stands for "the area of music under discussion", coined by Sergio Zamora on Jazz Corner. I like it"

I like it too and will also use it as an adjective like in "this is too taomudy for me". I will probably use it mostly on Jazz corner, so.

I think the proper form would be "taomuddy", wouldn't it?

Suppose, however, that it hadn't been "under discussion" until being brought up? What then?

To avoid that problem, I suppose one could use "the area of music [though I still prefer "of sound or silence"] formerly known as 'e-ai.'"
I guess the acronyms here would be "taomfkaeai" or [preferably] "taososfkaeai."

Elegant, eh?

Or...drop the "a" in "as," the "o" in "or," and use "e" for "e-ai" and get "taossfne" (or, the more question begging) "taomfne."

Hey, this is fun!

I mean, why do we need an "o" for the first "of" or a "t" for the "the" anyhow? No acronym makers bother with those little guys anymore! These are simpler:

"assfne" (or the less good "amfne").

Finally, since "known as" goes a little bit farther than the more modest "called"--let me aat last suggest "assfce" as the best term around! (When speaking, this could be pronounced either "assface" or "assfuck"--whatever the user prefers. :>}

walto, you must be kidding! Can you seriously suggest "formerly known as" instead of the much more appropriate "erstwhile known as?".

Well, even if you're correct about this Uli, that just seems to me another reason for preferring "formerly called" to "formerly known as."

"assfce" works!

I mean, suppose you're talking to somebody during the break at a Chicago Symphony concert. You've been chatting about the orchestra's recent repertoire and want to compare some Xenakis piece they played last month to something by, say, Rowe and Fennesz. Obviously, you can't use "taomud" because, well, that ISN'T the music that's been under discussion. In fact, the whole point is to compare this Rowe-Fennesz piece to some apparently other type of music (i.e. modern classical) that HAS BEEN under discussion! Clearly, "taomud" (even ignoring its other faults--sorry OZ) just won't work.

But never fear--"assfce" has come to the rescue!!

Not only that, I'm proud to ask no compensation whatever for this service to the cause of nuanced musical discussion and criticism. Think of it as humbly responding to a clarion call to duty.

Thank you guys, I need to laugh several times a day (good for health !).
You help me to do so and I can improve my english too. Acronyms invasion is good with you...

"p.s. why did you make the same joke as someone else in the thread?"

tomas: "hmm, let's see: because i didn't read it? oh and by the way: fuck you too."

well then, that casts some doubt upon the your abilities to read comprehensively which in turn throws doubt about your ability to listen so--i believe that threws you over into a shitty musicians camp too (do you hear the squealing rails!)

but some of us may be shitty musicians who don't deserve a name unlike you who are and have one, get it?

with a label called whatever you call it because you clearly don't deserve to use the name of the unameable you sure have a profound paranoia of traduction

thank god i meet one person everyday who does not know you from jon abbey, another one with a fear and hatred of what will not be "names"

again, what are you scared of?

Lone Deranger, what the hell are you talking about?

the anonymous shots really hamper this site. it'd be nice if something could be done about those.

-it'd be nice if something could be done about those.
Or in the words of reggae legends, the Abbeyssinians:
Fe go drink milk

yeah, have it your way burger king, spoiled brat who hides behind a name--
it would really nice if something could be done really done about you being a complete asshole!
but your hopless, right?

"your hopless, right?"

I don't know, for a white guy, I can still jump reasonably well.

on the other hand, you gents are certainly proving your lack of balls pretty thoroughly.

It's interesting to note how often the anonymised entries to the Bagatellen threads consist of little more than insults, witless comments and banalities. Why these people bother to post an entry, I've no idea.

[Marley] It's interesting to note how often the anonymised entries to the Bagatellen threads consist of little more than insults, witless comments and banalities.

Well spoken. Quite remarkable, isn't it, to witness what positive effect the mention (use?) of a proper name tends to bestow on a post in terms of some highmindedness. Thank the gods there's certainly no high muckamuck on this thread.

[Marley] It's interesting to note how often the anonymised entries to the Bagatellen threads consist of little more than insults, witless comments and banalities.

Well spoken. Quite remarkable, isn't it, to witness what positive effect the mention (use?) of a proper name tends to bestow on a post in terms of some highmindedness. Thank the gods there's certainly no high muckamuck on this thread.

It isn't a question of highmindedness, f.m. (aka F R Mencken, Honey and Bear), it's about whether you've got anything interesting to say.

This entire conversation is a joke, right? Like the music? I mean, all this talk of "challenge" and "endurance?" What is this, music or a triathlon? What a bunch of pretentious wankers...

Franlyn, you perplex me. If you're not interested in this music, why read the review and thread? Surely you've got something better to do with your time.

A chain link of Googling, my friend, that would take more time than it is worth to explain.

My favorite part is when the skeptic who suggests that the audience is mostly asleep is pounced upon by the "pro-boring music" mafia...whereupon a member of the mafia comes on and says, "Uh, actually I WAS asleep," then justifies it with a convoluted rationalization. Hilarious! You guys need to get girlfriends...

A chain link of Googling, my friend, that would take more time than it is worth to explain.

My favorite part is when the skeptic who suggests that the audience is mostly asleep is pounced upon by the "pro-boring music" mafia...whereupon a member of the mafia comes on and says, "Uh, actually I WAS asleep," then justifies it with a convoluted rationalization. Hilarious! You guys need to get girlfriends...

"I don't know, for a white guy, I can still jump reasonably well.

on the other hand, you gents are certainly proving your lack of balls pretty thoroughly."

oh that's a fresh one. you the one with the big respected label and self-importance and pretension enough to say what drags down the site i.e. if it suits your ego needs its good but if it makes you feel bad then the site has to be alterated to fit your protected leetle worlds. your fascistic. take the shot, big man. if you are in the right then it shouldn't bother you so much. your problem however is your not right often when it comes to how you treat certain peoples who are not on the list of your prefered talents and cabal of opinion influence. you are a nasty motherfucker but you are also intelligent enough to feel the guilt of your nastiness. i don't need to be your shrink but i'd hate surely to see what happens if your pot dealer cuts with you. balls have nothing to do with anything here. why not choose a better set of terms for your description of what you deem cowardice that aren't chauvanistic, mr. innovative label(er). you got so many double standards you can't see straight. you don't play fair, why should anyone else? now make another smartass comment and cry to bagatellen police to shut down the site from anonymity that frightens you

[Marley] It's interesting to note how often the [pseudonymised] entries to the Bagatellen threads consist of little more than insults, witless comments and banalities.

(b)analities

aka blanchot or nietzsche or use or mention

Aside from the bafflingly backwards notion that people hide behind real names rather than anonymity, if you have issues with either the music or the people involved with it, why not be specific with your complaints instead of churning out blather like the above? Generalized assertions and name-calling are pretty adolescent forms of "discussion".

as someone all-too-willing to be nasty under his own name, i have to agree with the anti-anonymity sentiments.

that said, why is that the eai/taomud/assface/whatever threads tend to be the ones that get nastiest and seem to engender to greatest number of ad hominem attacks? i'm not implying anything, but i do think it is a reasonable question to ponder, no?

A community of writers, readers, and posters work hard to make this site a good resource for unedited, unfiltered, honest, passionate discourse about music. While I personally prefer the challenge of expressing both positive and negative thoughts in a socially acceptable way using my real name at all times, I do respect the people who find anonymous posting to a be a meaningful conceptual expansion of human discourse, and used with good judgement it is probably a boon. Nonetheless, when people abuse this option to post incoherent, angry, insulting, spiteful remarks (mangled English is a drag too), they are committing an unethical and shameful act against the aforementioned community, and I'm posting this in the simple hope that the guilty parties will pause to reflect on their basic human goodness or lack thereof. Pose this question to yourself: Do I wish to spray graffiti on the text object that Richard (or whoever else) put heartfelt, authentic, and passionate effort into sharing with us?

As far as you people who have a vendetta against Jon Abbey, I don't see why it's not obvious to you that he runs a tiny, risk-taking label as a labor of love and is entitled to have passionate, strong opinions and express them clearly and honestly as much as anyone else, not to mention that he has more knowledge and experience to back up his viewpoints than most of us. Having strong opinions and expressing them is a profound contribution to the community and I only wish more people who have similar backgrounds and roles as him would follow his example and present themselves as authentic people engaged in an art form with foremost allegiance to their individual, personal experience and its accurate representation. Honest representation means a little dirt and acid mixed in with the positive and supportive stuff. I say this as someone who barely knows Jon at all and has only a passing, minor interest in his area of music; I'm certainly not a rabid apologist, just someone rather disgusted by these tired and insubstantial cheap shots frequently levelled at him. About 99% of anything I've seen Jon post to this site has been thoughtful, valuable, and incisive. Most of the anti-Abbey remarks I've seen reek of whiny jealously of his label and/or expertise. Stop whining and try to put a comparable depth of hard work and passion into enriching the global creative music community. We need more such people to have a balanced spectrum of choices and perspectives.

Another point: you only need to click "post" once! It works; have some patience and respect for the efforts of those who are trying to create beautiful text objects.

I'm stunned by this thread. TRUD(the record under discussion) has been blowing me away since I got it recently. Now back in the 80's "blowing my mind" might of been referring to the time I saw the Butthole Surfers and took acid and xtc (thank god for strobelights and fog machines to render everything utterly incoherent or was that the drugs?) but that was then and this is now and right now this 3 disc set is blowing my mind in exactly the same way! I haven't had the time to troll through the entire set at once but this weekend I will. Someone earlier said why listen to this when there is so much 'music' out there and again, I am stunned. To me this is music. I guess if that person means the predictable, "organized", product where I know everything that's going to happen before it happens that permeates the world, then why are they here? I can understand and would enjoy reading a critique of this music that thoughtfully laid out a specific plaint against the music contained therein with some measure of context. If someone said that this CD's ass was kicked by Sugimoto's latest offering and they hated it's overt occasional maximalisms, that'd be fine. Kinda wrongheaded from my point of view but I would get where they were coming from. But anything else? Why bother?
Anyway, I find this disc's particular stitching of the sort of topography I like to be constantly entertaining and intellectually stimulating. The ebb and flow of it's dynamics and use of silence borders on the psychic and the various shadings are so subtle that I find endless variety in its pursuits. I ain't gonna get bored of this one anytime soon. This music is a tapestry of various concerns of mine over the years, industrial or noise music, improv, and a survey of some of the other categorical semiotic shenanigans like Onkyo, reductionist, eai, etc etc etc but seeming most of all like "what it is!" That is, itself qua itself. Ahem. Of course I prefer Bruce Russell's term 'Free Noise'.
As for Mr. Abbey, or "The Pusherman" as I like to call him, I for one like him divesting me of my earnings. I don't know him personally and I'm not all that interested even if he's the biggest jerk in the world. Though from his posts here I can't imagine him being anything other than a thoughtful individual who has an enthusiasm for the same sounds I do. He puts out killer music and in this arena he ain't doing it to pay for that Pope-blessed Ferrari so he can sneak Angelina Jolie in the back entrance of his Beverly Hills mansion.
I find the Erstwhile label to be boon for a consistant documentation of some truly ground-breaking music. This set delivers on that and to these ears sounds more and more like a 'watershed release'. Yeah, I know, I was telling my friends that about the Amplify Box when that came out and I still stand by that statement. There's lots of great music here and lots of amazing discourse on this site, I'm not sure what happened on a review of something that is kicking my ass thoroughly. This set rocks.

If you have an aversion to eai, don't listen to it. If you don't like hearing about eai, don't read reviews and comments about it. If you've got nothing remotely interesting to say, keep your trap shut.

"If you have an aversion to eai, don't listen to it. If you don't like hearing about eai, don't read reviews and comments about it. If you've got nothing remotely interesting to say, keep your trap shut."

Unfortunately top eai cheerleader aebly don't live by the same pricinples and is constantly compelled to make ignorant negative remarks about music that he does not like to hear.

I really like the
'you guys needs to get girlfriends'

Well, since this has turned into another "disscussion of Mr. Abbey" thread, I want to add something. The thing about Jon is (and maybe even Uli will admit this) is that he's a very good producer/promoter. He's single-minded and prickly, sure. But what the hell. Whatever you think about the music, every Erst is beautifully produced and packaged and efficiently distributed. He pays his musicians fast and well, he organizes festivals, he services consumers. That's stuff that labels should do, and many don't.

OK, he doesn't need to diss other stuff so much and get so sensitivo when people don't like one or other of his releases. But effective flag-carriers (whether it's for a religion, a country, a way of thought, a new invention, a record label, or whatever) generally do piss people off, I think maybe the really passionate ones must have to. Maybe Jon just has to feel he KNOWS what is and isn't superb or essential in a bunch of musical spheres to keep his juices flowing....

Anyhow, I probably fight more with Jon than anybody other than Uli does, but as I think he knows, I've got a tremendous amount of respect for the guy anyhow. He's built something solid. How many of us can say that? If I started a label, it would be defunct in three months. Four tops.

So much for paeons. I request we now return to wise-ass remarks and pissy counter-attacks. Isn't that what we really come to the web for????

[:>}] pa rum pa pum pum.
on my drum.

[trap shut] What's the label?

As per Richard’s request, I’m closing this post to further comments. I haven’t had time to skim all the sniping & invective-lobbing, but gather that certain folks are simply interested in pushing buttons (& stuck ones at that) rather than adding meaningfully to the discourse. Seems a damn shame to me.