[Mike] Cool, thanks Brian! I didn't know about this one, can't wait to hear it! By chance I was playing the lovely Rowe/Beins duo album Grain earlier today, and I've been rather immersed in a number of free improv vocal albums lately (I think I'll do writeups on the new Makigami and Dutton discs sometime soon), so your remarks feel very timely.

[Brian] ...as with much good improv, the instruments themselves are subsumed by the music, a difficult trick given the psychological reactions listeners automatically have to the human voice. The handful of times the voice becomes too identifiable with a given emotional quality, as on the groaning sections of the second track, “Pick Force”, one is jerked a bit out of the “now” and into an area of pathos perhaps better left to other forms of music.

[Mike] I agree very much with your theoretical insight there in terms of both the general concept of instrumental identity being subsumed (the sum occluding the parts, as I vaguely recall putting it once) to the benefit of the music and the specific case of the human voice invoking or not invoking a psycho-social dimension that can be detrimental to some music while providing the very substance of other music. I think you really nailed it there in a very precise and vivid way, and that is a recurring theme/dilemma in vocal free improv.

I don't know Renkel much beyond the extrordinary (sparse, pointillistic, vibrant, dramatic) Mayas/Vogel/Renkel disc that made my best of 2004 list; any thoughts on how his playing compares on these two recordings?

Can you give any more info, Michael, on the Mayas/Vogel/Renkel disc? It's not even mentioned on Renkel's own site at http://www.michaelrenkel.de/.

Hello!

Don't know the ''Mayas/Vogel/Renkel'' release also and ican't wait to hear this one. As for Renkel's playing he is mostly in area mentioned by Brian but he can go also in other direction, especially now that he also adopts zither in his playing (check L'Innomabel release w Luca Venitucci on accordion ''Still'' or ''Two Variations'' by his duo w clarinetist Kai Fagaschinski Rebecca on Charizma label). Renkel is also worth checking as an electronician- in a duo Urbano Mistica Amplitude with Gato Lerias or his reworking of Activity Center's''Moowen & Moos Remixed'' i think both on 2:13 label ...

I'm most familiar with Renkel in previous Activity Center releases and his work in Phosphor (which was the one time I've caught him live, at Musique Action in 2002). My general impression is of a drier, perhaps slightly more academic version of Stangl--that may or may not pan out after more exposure. Indeed, just today I received the disc with Venitucci--on the changer at the moment and sounding pretty nice, and different, from other efforts.

How the fuck did we get from a nice battle cry a la "It’s too fuckin’ risky" to a risque taunt like "sounding pretty nice"?

Trying to navigate your ironic playfulness, I'm still hoping that by the cumulative use of words like "lovely" and "happily" (three times) and "nice" (twice and then again) to describe (your encounter with) this music you're not implying that the cd will find its rightful place on Dear (R.I.P.) Abby's nice coffee table.:)

But then, staying within the world of eai, the recent Rowe/ Beins erstlive did strike me as a lot less...eh...grainy than the aforementioned Grain. A trend? Mmh.

one is jerked a bit out of the “now” and into an area of pathos perhaps better left to other forms of music.

You mean like the forms Stangl is into, right? Or the sort of thing that uses quotations from 'Son of a Preacher Man'?

mcgr, apologies for offending your hardened sensibilities. Two too many "happily"'s, you're correct, though I only spot a "nicely" and no "nice"'s and that meant in the sense of being apt, not qualitatively. I do tend to use the term overmuch, granted, although as I usually write in conversational style, it's a word that pops up verbally often enough that I have no real problem with it. Not so much a coffee table book image, it denotes to me more the sense of comfortable satisfaction you get after eating a good feta and spinach omelet. You might not, years hence, list it among your ten favorite meals ever, but its memory brings a smile to your lips. That's more than good enough for me.

walt, No, no, very different things to my ears. The elements you list are, somehow, latent in the world established by the pre-existing music, there to be "discovered" by the musicians; that's why (again, to my ears at least) they sound so right when they appear, even if utterly unexpected. Other sounds, like the couple of Minton expostulations here, sound to me intrusive, as though he felt compelled to do something where perhaps nothing was required, steering the piece into an area I find less rewarding. My opinion only, of course--others may find those moments to be the highlight of the disc.

Feta & spinach omelette, eh? Maybe we should publish a specially devised menu to accompany our favourite discs.. And when Absinth records start appearing on people's coffee tables we'll know the world has finally turned upside down (for the better). Can't see the Renkel / Stangl comparison myself, Brian. The Berliners seem to have diversified much faster & wider than their Viennese equivalents, seems to me. Heard the new Zareks?

"The Berliners seem to have diversified much faster & wider than their Viennese equivalents, seems to me. "

boy, there's a massive generalization, and not one I can get behind. I think you'd have to write a whole essay to argue that point, one way or the other.

"Heard the new Zareks?"

I haven't yet, but one is a solo disc from Berliner Andrea Ermke, and the other's from a guy from Cincinnati. how does this support your above point? (just asking, as I said, I haven't heard them)

"one way or the other"

What's wrong with generalizing about a label that started out egging it Up In Flames (I'm imagining a complimentary burp courtesy of Mr Minton?) to let the pudding cool a bit a la Forlorn Green (spinach?)? Forget about one too many precious titles on the menu, some real burners kept coming all the way up to - say 031. Now I'm anticipating the most debussyan of flavors (feta from France?) to be served on 046.(Four guys, but reduction to a single cloud though).

Btw, what's wrong with "Cooking In Concert"?
http://www.pbs.org/juliachild/about/cic_pepin.html

There's a helping for those of a more "hardened" sensibility on Renkel's homepage
http://www.michaelrenkel.de/
check "about" for his essay on "Radical Plurality".
As the lady said, bon appetit.

I think it's about time someone gave props to our Brian for his managing to get both "burp" and "usurp" in the same sentence (the one that also has "eructations" in it). Bravo!

;>}

It ain't easy, I tells ya.

8)

8)

I apologize, Brian.

+-:-) *

or:

(:I **

Take your pick.

* User is the Pope or holds some other religious office.
** User is an egghead.

"I think you'd have to write a whole essay to argue that point, one way or the other." Yeah, too right. Give me a 36 hour day instead of 24 & I will. (Zareks) "the other's from a guy from Cincinnati." Iovae. (see March PT) "how does this support your above point?" Noise! Good ol' 2001-style reductionism's out of the window. "Just asking, as I said, I haven't heard them" Doesn't Ignaz Schick send you them Jon?

"'I think you'd have to write a whole essay to argue that point, one way or the other.' Yeah, too right. Give me a 36 hour day instead of 24 & I will."

36 hrs is all you need to prove Wittgenstein in his Philosophical Investigations wrong in claiming that you didn't need to know all things red to say "red", or to put all the bones in place to turn fundamentalists into Darwinians, or to come down with the final sentence on Boulez while watching all of Hegel's cows come home, or to post your unified theory that will account for the last star's tinkle.

In the meantime, I'll squeamishly join the literalist ranks and abstain from another beer until the FDA comes down with the final verdict...36 hrs.

"Doesn't Ignaz Schick send you them Jon?"

no, we were one of his primary distributors until these new ones, but with the increasing worthlessness of the dollar, we couldn't agree on a price that made sense for both of us.

You just start charging in Euros, Jon. Get a separate bank account denominated in Euros and stop using those ugly greenbacks except for restaurants.

Actually, I always preferred 48 Hours (with Eddie Murphy). Yeah, Ludwig, right.. The only Ludwig I get a(n ultraviolent) buzz from is Ludwig Van. Yes Jon! Go EURO!! Haha.. just like the bloody English, I don't think. Final sentence on Bouzel? Happy birthday and my present is: Bill Evans plays Verdi (well, what thfuck, Uri Caine did Mahler didn't he?)! "Dum de dum, nothing more.."

Caine did also Verdi's ''Othello''- i was unfortunate enough to be present in Venice when he did l' grande premieur of one of the worst things i've heard all my life called ''Othello Syndrome''. He did get standing ovations by venice crowd but that was probably just to justify bigbuck comission. What Caine did there sucessfully was to curante an excellent festival, but Otomo Yoshihide's solo after that disaster cleaned up my ears of bullshit uninspired kitsch. I saw him w ensemble also doing Goldberg Variations live which was better but still not good. I guess his Mahler is a better thing in his alltooambitiousprojects for Winter & Winter ...

I'm not too fond of his Mahler thing either. Swingle Singers stuff, seemed like.

I'm not particularly ashamed to admit I haven't heard it at all, and have no desire to do so.

"The only Ludwig I get a(n ultraviolent) buzz from is Ludwig Van."

eh...sorry, Dan. No offence, but I wasn't actually addressing you at all. More a case of being awed by Mr. Boy-There's-A-Massive-Generalization's logico-rhetorical skills.

"More a case of being awed by Mr. Boy-There's-A-Massive-Generalization's logico-rhetorical skills."

great, glad I could impress you. conversely, you have a remarkable ability to convey tiny tidbits of info in the most convoluted manner possible. I'd say I'm in awe of you, except I'm not.

Micahel Parker didn't respond to my request for info about the Mayas/Vogel/Renkel release he mentioned. Is he wrong about Renkel being on the disc, or is he pulling our legs about the whole thing?

Michael Parker listed Mayas/Vogel/Renkel disc in his favorites list of last year on Bagatellen so apperantly he's not pulling our legf. But as the story of L'Innomable release of Renkel/Venitucci goes that i got part of a record (first piece) a year before on a nice looking demo disc so i think it may be the same thing and that the record wasn't ''officialy'' released yet. I guess Michael Renkel should clarify us on that ...

lukaz: "Michael Parker listed Mayas/Vogel/Renkel disc in his favorites list of last year on Bagatellen so apperantly he's not pulling our legf."

It might just means that he's pulled them twice!

Yeah might be, but there is still a fact that Michael eventually played with those two ...

You're probably right. Renkel mentions a download of the trio at http://www.michaelrenkel.de/sound%20examples.html but he hasn't created a link to the file.

[Mike] Sorry for the slow reply! It's my bad habit to be very inconistent with web posting.

[Pitcher] Can you give any more info, Michael, on the Mayas/Vogel/Renkel disc? It's not even mentioned on Renkel's own site at http://www.michaelrenkel.de/.

[Mike] It's a low-budget CDR release with minimal packaging/info I got from Sabine last summer during her Vogel/Griener/Wright US tour. I'm guessing they planned on a more extensive release, but it hasn't materialized. I couldn't find any reference to it at all on the web. Really amazing music for my taste (acoustic instruments, lots of space, detail, unconventional sounds). I'll follow up on this topic...

As an additional observation, it seems that group of musicians make a habit of quick-and-dirty CDR releases prior to more conventional releases, because I also bought a reasonably attractive CDR release of the Schwimmer disc a few months before the Creative Sources release. Likewise for several other Vogel and Griener recordings. I really like this practice. Get the music out to the people! (Topic much in mind after rambling on the Vandermark thread a few minutes ago...)

I'm intrigued by Dan Warburton's comment that "The Berliners seem to have diversified much faster & wider than their Viennese equivalents". OK, it's hard to prove. But setting this aside, what does this Abinsth collaboration tell us about what's happening in Berlin? Is it part of a wider trend - perhaps one towards more collaborations with musicians from the older generations? Don't know Berlin too good myself.