Brian Morton has just published a Taylor Primer in The Wire, and a controversial one at that. I was under the assumption that the Primers represented the "best of" the artist's discography, but Morton includes a number of albums merely to shoot them down in flames (the albums with Trane and Mary Lou Williams particularly, but also Into The Hot, which I've always liked) and omits altogether two major Taylor documents on Hat, "Brewing" and "Salty Swift". Anyone else read this yet?
Cecil and guitars - I only have his FMP Bailey duet. Anybody out there recommend another encounter on disc between CT and an electric guitarist? I know Stefan Dill was with Cecil for a time, but I don't think any recordings appeared to document that collaboration.

I'll check, but all I can think of in my house is this one and the Bailey.

What the hell's wrong with "Into the Hot"?! I love Taylor's contributions to that record!

BTW, was the Maneri/Taylor gig at the Library of Congress ever released on disc? I've always had a hankering to hear that. Mat thought it went really well.

Walt, I like that line about "violently spinning broken propellers." Dan, who's on the cover of that Wire ish' with the Primer?

Far as I know there aren't any other discs w/ Cecil & guitar (other than INCARNATION and SHAKIN' THE GLASS), though Bruce Eisenbeil has played in some of his large ensembles which have been recorded.

That Taylor/Maneri concert hasn't been commercially released yet either, but innumerable fingers are crossed. I spoke to Mat about it several years ago & he told me that Cecil had him 'rehearsing' all day, right up until just prior to the performance. By that point he was on the verge of exhaustion and Taylor hardly seemed phased. Mat referred to it as easily one of the most grueling gigs of his career, but also among the most memorable.

The new Wire has the guy from Ghost on the cover. Self-promotional note: I've got a piece in the "Bites" section on Pelican, an instrumental "post-metal" band I recommend to everybody here.

I´ve seen Cecil with Larry Coryell in a Jam session during Dizzy Gillespie´s Birthday
always celebrated at the Grande Parade du Jazz in Nice ... that s was George Wein s times and something like 1982 ( or 81 ) ... but as i was into Tal Farlow in these days i did not quite noticed that ... Lionel Hampton sat on drums at a point ....

the Pablo live with Mary Lou Williams duo and quartet is really great in find , is it now on CD ?

best
n

I also thought i was reading somewhere Blood Ulmer and Cecil made something in the mid 70 ´s and also it seems Joe Morris did work with Taylor ( or was it a workshop )
it may well also be that Joseph Dejean played with Taylor during Paris BYG times
Bisceglia should now that

best
n

and it seems there s also a Cecil Taylor Trio CD ( or few tracks ?) with Derek
probaly Oxley and Parker too

>Brian Morton has just published a Taylor Primer >in The Wire, and a controversial one at that.

You're telling me. When I saw it on the contents page I thought that at last I'd get a relatively striaghtforward guide to a musician I've always wanted to listen to but have always been confused with where to start. And by Brian Morton, who I may not always agree with but at least I know where he's coming from. After reading it I'm more confused than when I started.

I was puzzled by some omissions: where was the duo album with Max Roach? And what about my favorite solo Taylor album, Air Above Mountains?

Yes - forgot about "Air.." I also think Brian's pretty hard on the album with Coltrane. OK so Dorham's out of his depth, but the collision between Trane's linearity and CT's verticality is absolutely fascinating. Maybe we just have a different idea about what constitutes a "good" album. Hesitations, mistakes, conflicts and even downright fuckups are often things I return to. Damn, if every album was as good as "Kind of Blue" or "Out to Lunch" it'd be a pretty dull world. I do have to say that the Mary Lou / CT outing presents me with irreconcilable differences.. but I wouldn't shoot it down.

as a US-based subscriber to the Wire, I hope to join this discussion in 2-3 weeks.

Wow, it takes that long for Wires to swim the Atlantic? I guess so - Alan Licht once told me he found one on a newsstand in Brooklyn a week before they it the usual outlets (don't know whose newsstand it was, but there are so many musicians in Brooklyn it probably belonged to a free improvisor!)
Well, we'll still be here in 3 weeks when you join in, Jon!
Meanwhile, I'm always a bit dubious about Primers.. with a discography as vast as CT's (I have barely half of it, maybe less) it's always a tough job choosing the highlights. But I do think those late 70s Hat albums should have been there.
Anyway, reservations or not, I wrote to Chris Bohn asking if he needs a Dolphy primer (one of the letters this month gave me the idea) - we'll see if anything comes of that. About time there was an AMM Primer too.

I've been trying to get him to let me do an avant-garde metal primer, covering Pain Killer, Gorguts, the Flying Luttenbachers, and several dozen other things. Might have to lean on him again soon.

Europeans. . .does Morton copy & paste his thoughts like the Mingus primer? Don't you have anything fresh to add? 'Black Saint gets a crown,' 'Antibes is a cold shower' (what a travesty were a neophyte to avoid that monstrous recording). Try some fresh substance, Brian.

Count me as another one who found the primer a bit odd, and I'm someone who doesn't have much Cecil, so was prepared to read it with some interest. However, they did put a little bit in goto: about londonimprov, so I'm a bit happier with the Wire this month than usual - I barely asked them to do it "how do I get a mention for this in goto:?" and there it was.

Nat, what's your secret? goto:bagatellen.

How is the primer laid out? Is it a list? Prose?

>How is the primer laid out? Is it a list? Prose?

Interpretive dance.

My recollection was that the comment about the Antibes concert was intended positively.

I glanced at the Taylor primer on the newstand but didn't actually work through it given that I don't really need a primer on Taylor. But I should take a closer look.

e-mailed the listings guy with some listings and put almost exactly the same sentence at the end of the e-mail. It may have been an attempt to make right for publishing the listings deadline as three weeks later than usualy in the January issue when it in fact had/has moved to two weeks earlier than usual.

A Luttenbachers Primer - yeah, I could go for that Phil. Weasel Walter is one of those cats (Hafler Trio was also, until recently) that The Wire tends to pass by, not knowing where to file him I suppose.
Heard the WW / Drumm / Lonberg-Holm one on Grob? Mighty, as John Peel used to say.

Nate, it's a quote from Delaunay, and the review is mildly positive, but I feel this date is one of the true exponents of black music in the 20th cen. This really might be #1 on my list, period.

Listen to Eric breathing and sweating atop the congregation at the conclusion of 'Folk Forms I.'

I usually point Mingus neophytes to Antibes also, one of the first jazz discs to really blow me away. I love quite a few of his records, but have never deeply connected to Black Saint and the Sinner Lady, give me New Tijuana Moods anyday...

Amen, Jon.
Yes, Brian Morton's a big Black Saint fan - there's some superb stuff on there (the last ten minutes are amazing, even the weird editing), but I wonder what that album would have been like if Dolphy had been on it (no disrespect to Charlie Mariano..).
As we're bitching about those Primers, I agree with the bloke who wrote in to The Wire complaining about the absence of Changes One and Two in the Mingus Primer. The quintet with Walrath, Adams & Pullen had to be THE great Mingus group of the 1970s.

I'll quibble with Dan here. Whether the Changes band was the great Mingus group fo the 70s or not (not too much competition really though, at their best, I might prefer the Bobby Jones, Charles McPherson, Byard group), I always found those two albums too chilly for my taste. Some fine compositions, but something about them always struck me as too confined, too unrelaxed. And I've never been a Walrath fan. Better than the abysmal "Mingus Moves", but still...

fwiw, though I love the Black Saint sessions, I also might be hard-pressed to rank it in my top 10 or so Mingus dates. But then again, I'm a huge LMCHM fanatic, so WTFDIK?

I think THE great Mingus group of the 1970s is a compliment roughly akin to THE great Republican US president of the last twenty years. I don't think any of his work from then is as good as his best 10-15 records before that.

DOLPHY s Playing on Mingus Antibes is PURE BEAUTY YES Dan !

i d recommand too the 3 titles of Bud Powell / Johnny Griffin recorded in Paris just as Duet ... and Blakey s Messengers in Paris with Barney Wilen on alto as a special Guest .... in the same "vein"

best from far
n

Glad to see I'm not the only person who thinks that "Black Saint" isn't the greatest Mingus record. I probably listen to it least of all of his I own (I don't have any seventies recordings though).

Very funny how a discussion on the last Cecil Taylor record to be issued turn on an evaluation of the merits of some Mingus records.
By the way, I don't like much Black Saint either and I'm a geat supporter of Antibes.
The two best Mingus, aniway, are still for me Ah Hum and the first Candid one.
And the best Dolphy I've ever heard is the incredible introduction of Stormy Weather on the second Candid where Mingus push Dolphy to his most lyrical limits.
As Cecil Taylor is concern, I've just listen to Incarnation and find it far inferior to much of the others FMP. I don't like Douglas at all and the only interesting thing on it for me, its the meeting with Cyrille again. A duet album between both of them could have been a winner

Who would the great Republican President be, I wonder? Agree that "Mingus Moves" is a damp squib, but I still think "Changes One & Two" are essential records. It may depend on your tastes - I know George Adams isn't everyone's cup of tea, and to be sure Walrath isn't on the same level as Pullen and Adams (nor other Mingus trumpeters before)- but for my money "Sue's Changes" is a significant Mingus composition, and the instrumental version of "Sound of Love" absolutely delicious.

The great Republican president would be Abraham Lincoln. But that was when the GNP was the good party. A long time ago.

Now the template for GNP presidents is Reagan. They want to put him on some currency...by all rights it should be some denomination over $1 million...

I like Antibes best. For Taylor I enjoy Conquistador. Early work, but I think Dixon was a welcome foil.

Apologies as I first brought up Mingus. Dan, I absolutely agree per 'Sue's Changes' but I also think that his 70s bands were not as earth-shattering as what came before (how can anyone fault him for not following the Atlantics or Candids?)

Gulp. . .I really think the definitive 'Sue's Changes' is off that Mingus Big Band 'Live in Time.'

LeMo or anyone. . .I just can't imagine Douglas in a Taylor grouping after hearing that embarassingly bad Persons recording a while back.

I love the CHANGES records, but I do have to agree with Brian that LET MY CHILDREN HEAR MUSIC is probably Mingus' one masterpiece from the 1970's, Macero-ifications notwithstanding.

But [paraphrase of a paraphrase] then again, I'm a huge Bethlehem recordings (EAST COASTING, A MODERN JAZZ SYMPOSIUM...) and TIJUANA MOODS fanatic, so WTFDIK?

As far as Talyor goes, the recordings on INTO THE HOT are among his most significant, IMO.

I don't know if Black Saint is my favorite Mingus record (that's probably The Clown, believe it or not), but it's certainly the one I play the most often. The big bass clarinet farts in the beginning always do it for me.

I'll probably pick up Incarnation at some point, but I need The Willisau Concert first, I think. I need more solo Taylor.

I've gone back and forth on it over the years, but currently I also have a very high opinion of "Cumbia and Jazz Fusion". It has its faults but overall I like it a bunch.

Phil get that Intakt posthaste! I know my CT, and I would be hard-pressed to find a better sounding piano recording. He's playing an Imperial and you simply won't believe your ears.

. . .and to further clarify, by Morton 'copy & pasting,' I meant that he merely rehashed or reprinted what exists in the Penguin, itself. Surely things (i.e., personal appraisal, tastes, approaches to music you've come to know) change with age, in other words.

Phil, that's a bass trombone. TBSATSL and MINGUSx5 would be waaaay up top on my Mingus list for many reasons, one of those being Charlie Mariano's defining moments, having never sounded better or more possessed by music, IMO. And then that would be a perfect example of how Mingus was able to shape his musicians to his compositions. I can't even talk about Dannie Richmond without getting giddy.

I love Antibes too, perhaps as much, but couldn't possibly compare it to the Impulse records. Different bands, different music.

Michael, when you get around to INCARNATION, let me know what you think of Franky. I think he's wonderful here.

I was happy that the Mingus primer touched on his interest in jazz and recitation but was surprised that the writer didn't mention at all "Scenes in the City".

I've always enjoyed how the piece moves through it's various "scenes" and it always seemed obvious to my ears that this piece had a measure of influence on the atmosphere of some of Zorn's early pieces: Godard and Spillane.

LeMo: "By the way, I don't like much Black Saint either and I'm a geat supporter of Antibes.
...
And the best Dolphy I've ever heard is the incredible introduction of Stormy Weather"

Interesting. I like Black Saint a lot, but also the Stormy Weather (for Dolphy) a great deal. I remember listening to it a fair amount back when I was at university.

Al, I'm on it, curious as hell to see how Franky fares on this one.

"I need more solo Taylor."

I just can't let this slip by. Phil, in no particulr order, and you may have some of these:

--"Silent Tongues" (7/2/74) (Arista/Freedom)

A popular choice, perhaps unmatched in portions, nonetheless essential.

--"Solo" (5/29/72) (Venus)

This is really sweaty, recorded at 2:30am in Tokyo. Not necessarily for even the seasoned solo CT fan, but ever so different than anything in this context, for reasons you could only infer/deduce upon listening. Weird.

--"Erzulie Maketh Scent" (7/16/88) (FMP)

Fucking spectacular. . .undervalued criminally, and fucking spectacular. Yes, the inevitable CT FMP box muddiness is ostensible, no matter. If you haven't already, do it.

--"The Tree of Life" (3/19/91) (FMP)

Sumptuous, very different effort. Plodding and quite personal, to my ears. I think this recording is an essential compendium to his early to mid 70s solo approaches.

--"Garden, Vol. 1 & 2" (11/16/81) (hatART)

I dropped some snaps to pick this incredible effort in mint vinyl at a local place. I guess one could peg this his most complete recital; eager fenestra and dark corners, all of it is addressed. . .worth the search in its original format (the packaging makes up some of the price, but don't bother w/the verse).

"For Olim" (4/9/86) (Soul Note)

I picked this up a while back in college and always thought it a very mature effort, for whatever reason. The Master takes his time, but don't let that lead you to believe this is a minimal attack. . .think of the brevity incident to staccato. By the way, in my opinion his best, most tenebrous but quiet codas are involved here.

"Iwontunwonsi" (2/8/86) (Sound Hills)

Always I'm curious to hear blokes' opinion on this one from the moribund Sweet Basil. I don't know if this room had the best acoustic environment for Cecil. The attack is amazingly thorough throughout. . .sit down with this one. I'd say middle of the road but again, one of the unique ones, depending on what kind of night you like Taylor.

And then there's "Indent" and you siad you already had "Air Above Mountains," which Nathaniel Mackey screamed at me was his best solo performance. Hell, that third solo selection off the terminally unhip "Momentum Space" is just about as moving as anything, so enjoy the journey.

. . .that's the fourth selection off the terminally unhip "Momentum Space," by the way, and this is another recent example of Taylor recorded perfectly, way out in front. It sounds like a Steinway, I could be wrong.

What's terminally unhip about Momentum Space? Granted, not all of it works--the long trio track near the end is clunky--but the opening trio track (where Elvin just plays time rather than striving to play free) is quite good, as are some of the solos & duos.

I remember once listening to _Black Saint &..._ & thinking it astonishingly powerful stuff. Just one listen: never really recaptured that impact on subsequent hearings. Antibes & Ah Um are the ones. -- The Changes discs are great too--"The I of Hurricane Sue" & "Sue's Changes", in particular, & I like the vocal version of the Ellington tribute too! Walrath's role on the discs is very second-fiddle--I think he only ever gets a real solo on his own tune ("Black Bats & Bean Poles" or whatever it's called) so I can't see why people would find his work on the disc much of a factor one way or the other.

Nate you're right with me. The first four selections of "Momentum Space" are fantastic. It grows old fast after that, but the first trio cut (incredible interplay--when Dewey comes back in subsequent to Cecil's solo, wow), the Elvin solo (not stale by any stretch, and more E. African than anything, which is rather recondite), the Dewey/Elvin duo (Elvin fucking takes over about three minutes in) and the gentle Cecil solo are unforgettable. I've read a few reveiews of this completely deriding its quality. . .maybe due to the label/exposure, who knows.

Thank you very much Michael for the succinct and fine CT solo piano primer - I'll have to do some shopping myself, it seems, for "Erzulie" which I don't have.
Nate's right, Jack Walrath had apparently only recently joined the Mingus group when Changes was recorded, and doesn't get much solo space (Black Bats & Poles being an exception - and a fine Walrath composition too). But there's no "I of Hurricane Sue" on either Changes album, Nate.

I've never understood the scorn heaped on Momentum Space either. I listen to it all the time, and like it quite a bit.

Thanks for the solo-rec list. I don't have any of those; the two solo discs I have are Air Above Mountains and Indent.

Just grabbed the albums--yeah, getting mixed up ("The I..." is on Let My Children, isn't it...?). I'd been thinking about the pair of related compositions "Remember Rockefeller at Attica" & "Free Call Block F, 'tis Nazi U.S.A." (in fact they're so related that due to a screwup their titles got reversed); but also thinking about the enormous reading of "Orange Was the Color...." which serves as the centrepiece of the alubm in the way that "Sue's Changes" does on the other.

Okay, I went out and bought The Willisau Concert over lunch and after one play, 4 out of 5 dentists agree: it's ass-rapingly great.

I have, too, to make some shopping... I mean, I'll ordered some by the net as no shop in this entire country will have any of those (except "For Olim", that I've seen around, but... well, I'm not a great fan of it.)
Interesting comment Michael S. on Solo (Venus.) Because this one has always puzzled me with its extract of Indent (the composition not the record) among other thing for the shortest Cecil Taylor solo ever publish (less than thirty two minute.)
Nothing to add to your fine commentary, only to correct the date of the recording you gave: it's from 1973 not 72, recorded a month after Indent, so it makes it, chronologycaly, the second Cecil Taylor solo ever tape.

Bought Incarnation yesterday with trade-in credit at Kim's. Haven't played it yet, as I have to review the new McCoy Tyner for Jazziz. How's that for a stylistic leap? (I also got Prophecy and Nuits De La Fondation Maeght; I'm giving Ayler another chance.)

Oh, and the Taylor/Maneri duo disc has finally been released, titled Algonquin, on Bridge. Got a copy the other week. Really solid stuff. Maneri is definitely a partner, not an accompanist, during the performance. Highly recommended.

I agree entirely about "Algonquin," Phil: it's even better than I expected (& I expected a lot).

Another set of thumbs pointed skyward for ALGONQUIN (and INCARNATION too for that matter). Phil, in ten words or less what’s your beef with Ayler?

Excessive hype resulted in disappointment. Plus, hated his singsongy melodies.

In that case Phil can I have your complimentary copy of the Revenant box when it comes out? hahaha

It's funny; I kinda want that thing. I mean, have you seen the track listing?

DISC ONE
Herbert Katz Quintet w/Albert Ayler:
June 19, 1962 in Helsinki, Finland
1. Sonnymoon for Two
2. Summertime
3. On Green Dolphin Street
Cecil Taylor Quartet w/Albert Ayler:
November 16 1962 in Copenhagen, Denmark
4. spoken intro
5. Four
Albert Ayler Trio
June 14, 1964 in New York City
6. untitled; ends with "Spirits"
7. Saints
8. Ghosts

DISC TWO
Albert Ayler Trio:
June 14 1964 in New York City
1. The Wizard
2. Children
3. Spirits
Albert Ayler Quartet:
September 3. 1964 in Copenhagen, Denmark
4. Spirits
5. Vibrations
6. untitled
7. Mothers
8. Children
9. Spirits
Burton Greene Quintet w/Albert Ayler:
Jan/Feb 1966 in New York City
10. Untitled

DISC THREE
Albert Ayler Quintet
April 16, 1966 in Cleveland, Ohio
1. spoken intro
2. Spirits Rejoice
3. D.C.
4. untitled
5. Our Prayer
6. spoken intro
7. untitled
8. Ghosts
Albert Ayler Quintet:
April 17, 1966 in Cleveland, Ohio
9. Spirits Rejoice
10. Medley:
Prophets - Ghosts - Spiritual Bells
11. Our Prayer

DISC FOUR
Albert Ayler Quintet:
April 17, 1966 in Cleveland, Ohio
1. untitled/Truth is Marching In
2. Spirits
3. Medley:
Zion Hill - Spirits - Spiritual Bells
4. untitled

DISC FIVE
Albert Ayler Quintet:
November 3. 1966 in Berlin, Germany
1. spoken intro
2. Ghosts/Bells
3. Truth is Marching In
4. Omega
5. Our Prayer
Albert Ayler Quintet:
November 8, 1966 in Rotterdam, The Netherlands
6. spoken intro
7. Truth is Marching In
8. Bells
9. Spirits Rejoice
10. Free Spiritual Musics Part IV

DISC SIX
Albert Ayler Quintet:
June 30/July 1, 1967 in Newport, Rhode Island
1. Truth is Marching In/Omega
2. Japan/Universal Indians
3. Our Prayer
Albert Ayler Quartet:
July 21, 1967 ("Coltrane Funeral") in New York City
4. Love Cry/Truth is Marching In/Our Prayer
Pharoah Sanders Ensemble w/Albert Ayler:
January 21, 1968 in New York City
5. Venus/Upper and Lower Egypt
Albert Ayler:
ca. late August, 1968 in New York area
6. untitled blues
7. untitled sermon
8. Thank God for Women
9. New Ghosts [demo fragments]

DISC SEVEN
Don Ayler Sextet w/Albert Ayler:
January 11. 1969 in New York City
1. Prophet John
2. Judge Ye Not
Albert Ayler Quartet:
July 28, 1970 in Villages Vacances Tourismew, St. Paul de Vence, France
3. Mothers/Children
4. untitled
5. untitled
6. untitled

I'd love to hear that Cecil and Pharoah stuff, and the track from Coltrane's funeral celebration. Too bad discs 8 and 9 are interviews; I think those should just have been transcribed into the accompanying book. A 7-CD box, even one from Revenant, would be substantially cheaper than a 9-CD one.

Agree. Burton Greene on there, eh? Did you check out the interview I did with him on the PT site?

1) Algonquin is indeed pretty darn good to judge by two not-always-focussed listens.

2) I've no problem with the interview material on the Ayler set--as long as they ALSO provide a transcription. & ideally provide index markers on the CD in case you need to find a spot--nothing more annoying than an interview track that's 30 minutes long & you're trying to find one key quote....