A half mil buys a lot of Japanese porn.

did y'all see this?
http://blogfiles.wfmu.org/BT/colbertzorn.mpg

I normally consider Colbert a whiny bitch, but that clip IS pretty damn funny.

It s fine

but then would be nice to list all funds ( and other finnacial sources ) in every "genre-section" as well

you d be surprised

or not

n

I'm glad he got it; he deserves it.

I'm not saying that vandermark didn't deserve his, he did, but it boggled my mind at the time that he could get it while zorn hadn't. i'm still surprised it took another 6(?) years for them to get it to zorn. he should have gotten it in 1992.

I like the blue & red socks. Now he can afford to buy himself a new pair. And some shelves for the those vinyls before they all give way.
Looking forward to Phil Freeman's thoughts on this thread, as he's such a big Zorn fan ;-)

A question. Is the MacArthur money given only to Americans? If so, why?

"A half mil buys a lot of Japanese porn." [nasty snicker] Probably the Colbert exposure is even more significant!

There's undoubtedly an element of "it's who you know" to the Macarthur grant world. To get on the consideration list you have to be nominated by a certified nominator. How do you get to be a nominator?
http://www.macfound.org/site/c.lkLXJ8MQKrH/b.959463/k.9D7D/Fellows_Program.htm

If you consider the amount of the grant to the global amount Zorn generates through all his various projects 500 000 on 5 years isnt a radical change of life style , it for sure helps
but that s also to be seen given to someone who does draw a lot ( audience, albums solds, people discovering music through him etc )

A question. Is the MacArthur money given only to Americans? If so, why?

dunno why precisely but at least BECAUSE European system in art funding is already
massive ...

Graham L. Rogers asked, "Is the MacArthur money given only to Americans? If so, why?"

1 - yes:
"There are no restrictions on becoming a Fellow, except that nominees must be either residents or citizens of the United States."

2 - ??

However, it should be noted that the Fellowship program is only one of MacArthur's grant programs (though the only one dedicated to individual creativity).

Here's a YouTube link to that Colbert Report bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQjVOsYgp78

So why must one be "either residents or citizens of the United States." ???

"So why must one be "either residents or citizens of the United States." ???"

It may just be a limitation the Foundation set for itself, not having (or not wanting to devote) the resources to do a global search for worthy Fellows. Seems reasonable to me, especially given the sorry state of public support for non-marketplace creativity in the U.S.

There we have it I think, Jason, in a nutshell. "Not having (or not wanting to devote) the resources to do a global search for worthy Fellows". Music is a world-wide medium. There are approximately 230 countries in the world, of which America is only one.

i see what you're saying graham - all artists all over the world deserve grants. but this is how foundations work - they set up limits for themselves and give to people within specific demographics. the macarthur's happens to be focused on americans. that's ok.

and now that i think about it, the macarthur well represents a particularly american philosophy: reward the top .02% (the zorns and vandermarks and lacy's etc. that already have sustainable, profitable careers in the arts) with a massive sum of money and let the other 99.98% of artists struggling to get by suffer with nothing.

(that's not to say that some of the money doesn't trickle down to others through those folks, or that they don't deserve it.)

Graham,
I'm usually at the head of the line to point out instances of obnoxious U.S. exceptionalism, narcissism, etc., but I think you're comments regarding the Fellowship program are misguided.
The MacArthur Foundation does many things to benefit humanity around the world; see:
http://www.macfound.org
The Fellowship Program is just one of their programs (and a relatively small one at that), and musicians are among many other types of creative people who are included in that program (though, sadly, very few filmmakers). We can get into a whole debate about the legitimacy of nation-state borders - by your logic, U.S. citizens should be able to collect unemployment benefits from the U.K. government - but it's perfectly reasonable for MacArthur's Fellowship program to limit itself in this way. Indeed you probably wouldn't be much happier if this small group of people at a private institution in Chicago started making decisions about the worthiness of creative artists in Kyrgyzstan.

OK, thanks Steve and Jason. I was just feeling a little sorry for ( ... one example) a few east Anatolian goat-herdsmen whose "individual creativity" is once again ignored by the forces of business as usual, in favour of a money-media-wrapped John Zorn.

still waiting for roscoe mitchell to receive his...

if zorn deserved it in '92 steve, when was/is roscoe due for his??

A lot of Zorn's music is obnoxious, but his track record for supporting new music is hard to fault. There are many, many musicians (not all of them Americans) who've had their music released on Tzadik who otherwise wouldn't have had it released at all. All that was published with $$$ Zorn earned from those 90's Nike TV spots, etc.

roscoe deserved one ever since the day he posed for the photograph on the cover of that sackville 'solo saxophone concerts' LP, around 1973.

Zorn is crap.

This thread caused me to pull out and listen again to Zorn's Ornette tribute, "Spy vs. Spy" from 1989. I always rather liked it, even if it was a pale imitation of Last Exit, and was massively overdubbed and post-produced.

Then I played Ornette's 20th anniversary edition of "Song X". It's clear to me who the Master is.

Both figures are over-rated:Zorn has made some good music, and so has Coleman...BUT...both ran out of creative steam many years ago, and over the length of their careers they have failed to produce a consistently brilliant body of work.

Colemans 'harmolodic' innovations(which nobody understands, even Coleman)took place early on and overshadowed the far more innovative and creative music of Cecil Taylor(someone who has produced a definitive body of work);Zorn has produced some excellent work,though is now mired in the same creative cul-de-sac colman has been exploring for decades. Neither are great, and neither are especially bad either. These days of course everybody is great, and to say otherwise is considered damnation.

Let me rephrase that; I don't generally like his music, and I'd already seen his name once to many times in the last few weeks before he was given a Weirdo Grant.

"and over the length of their careers they have failed to produce a consistently brilliant body of work. "

as opposed to a good old EAI live album

indeed

rocks

n

"Both figures are over-rated:Zorn has made some good music, and so has Coleman...BUT...both ran out of creative steam many years ago, and over the length of their careers they have failed to produce a consistently brilliant body of work."

-My only complaint about them is that they both use Greg Cohen. I saw him with Masada string trio last year he was not playing anywhere near a level comensurate with the fees he is getting. Hopefully Ornette won't start playing with Patton.

As for Zorn, I think in many ways he is under-rated. Especially within the creative music community. There was a period where he could be taken lightly, but at this point, after a couple decades of working out a ton of different concepts with some of the greatest musicians on the planet, it is time for reassesment.

I am not going to argure that Cecil's body of work is more solid,
I own most of his discography and he fits within my personal ideas about music much better.

I dig Greg Cohen’s work. Granted, I’ve only heard him live once w/ Masada at the Chicago Jazz Fest channeled through horrible set of hanging stadium speakers in Grant Park. But his work on disc is another matter and I’ve enjoyed it in settings ranging from Masada Tzadiks/DIWs to Kenny Davern’s Quartet on Arbors. He’s also great in the company of Tom Waits. What about him specifically do you find lacking?

and now that i think about it, the macarthur well represents a particularly american philosophy: reward the top .02% (the zorns and vandermarks and lacy's etc. that already have sustainable, profitable careers in the arts)

Actually, the MacArthur is supposed to go to people who are still showing promise, and are not established. Unfortunately it mostly doesn't play out that way, but that's one reason (perhaps) that Vandermark could have gotten it before Zorn, and why, in a way, Zorn doesn't deserve it at all. It's not supposed to be recognition for something you've already done.

"Both figures are over-rated:Zorn has made some good music, and so has Coleman...BUT...both ran out of creative steam many years ago, and over the length of their careers they have failed to produce a consistently brilliant body of work."

Who the fuck are you to make statements like that? Perhaps you might provide us with something approaching justification for such a remark? And name someone who HAS produced "a consistently brilliant body of work." A full name might be useful too, but then again maybe you prefer to remain anonymous (I can certainly understand why). Christ, I knew a Zorn thread on Bagatellen was asking for trouble.

I'll stand up for Zorn any day. I don't care what anyone thinks of his music, his taste in porn, or his taste in friends. He has one of the only record labels in the world that gives a budget to creative musicians for their recording, knowing all too well that the money will likely never be recouped. He's been generous in many other ways as well to friends and associates. Despite his indulgent ways he gives opportunities and support to hundreds of other musicians, and is ten thousand times more productive than most musicians I've ever encountered. In my experience he likes to make money as much as the next guy, but I'll bet you 500,000 dollars that a gigantic percentage of his MacArthur will be used to support someone besides himself. John can already buy as much stuff as he could really want to. So the 500,000 should go to someone needier? I can see this point, but I don't care. The MacArthur nomination process is a buddy system? So are most systems of this kind. Cecil put his MacArthur up his nose. Zorn will put a little of his into self-indulgence, and probably a lot more into things like the Stone, which may not be perfect, or have the exact policies you would want, or be the perfect environment for every type of project or blah blah blah, but Zorn pays the rent so that a ton of people can have or hear a gig in an intimate setting, free of overt commerce and beverage swilling, with an wonderfully varied schedule, where they'll never vibe the musicians for not drawing a crowd. What the hell is in it for John? Not a whole lot...

And meanwhile, if all Zorn had ever done in music was the records contained in the Parachute Years box set, I'd be fine with calling him a genius. Are there others who are just as much a genius who haven't received their due recognition? Of course! So what? At least this one IS deserving.

I can't think of any artist in any medium in my generation who has done more work, been more independent, provoked more controversy, supported more artists, or has created a broader, deeper or more rigorous body of work than John Zorn. His creativity won't stop until he's dead. If he doesn't quailfy for a Genius Fellowship who does? It's nobody's business what he does with his money.

There some musicians who share what they have to advance the art. Vandermark is one of them. Zorn is incredible in this regard. I hope that William Parker gets the Big Mac next.

Re: Greg Cohen, Let's count the bassists who have the technique and spirit to play in Masada string trio and with Ornette. Does anyone really think they can do better? Don't you think Zorn and Ornette are pretty good judges about who can play their music?

Joe said more succinctly what I was thinking...

And yeah, Greg is a great musician too.

"My only complaint about them is that they both use Greg Cohen."

Call em up and get the gig better , why not ?

--------

reading posts here and there becomes like watching a bloody stupid riot between kids and their toys sometime .... ( but emails and chats are not real, we re all behind the screen and that seems to clearly push some pre-dispostions for hiden neuro-bullshit )

whether emphasis for not much or dephasing against nature or history ...

it s all becoming a none sense more that often ....

i just wonder why we cant have a PLURIAL vision of things ... like ZORN is ZORN, you can of course criticize him and the length of his career with its various evolutions, but you can also respect the many things he does did and will probably, and that doesnt mean you will adore every of his albums or buy every tzadik
that means HE S THERE AND MORE THAN FOR A LITTLE

why always Good vs Evil ?

Cheers
OFF THE THING again
n

I agree with Joe and Reuben. I don't like a lot of the Zorn music I have heard (my keepers: the first four Pain Killer discs, Naked City's Black Box, and Spy Vs. Spy), but without his efforts I might never have heard Keiji Haino. So yeah, a half million put into Tzadik and/or the Stone is money well spent as far as the music scene as a whole is concerned. And I agree William deserves one of these grants, post-haste.

As to what the fuck Cuthbert is thinking w/r/t Ornette having run out of steam, I haven't a clue. I wonder if he's heard Sound Grammar, or seen that band live. I doubt it.

"Re: Greg Cohen, Let's count the bassists who have the technique and spirit to play in Masada string trio and with Ornette. Does anyone really think they can do better? Don't you think Zorn and Ornette are pretty good judges about who can play their music?"

- Hard to say. The concert I saw was really, really rough. I saw what I saw and heard what heard. He played in time and that was about it.
He was unamplified and about 15 feet from me.
For the amount of $$ that guy brings in from music, not mention the high profile gigs he gets I don't think
it out of line to expect his playing to be way above par, and it certainly was not.

"I don't think
it out of line to expect his playing to be way above par, and it certainly was not."

Pay what you use ....

Like Don Cherry was doing after the show for each musician : How Much did you play for tonite in $ ?

n

What about Dernado then , to keep a certain logic ?

it s the kind of comment straight ahead players would do ( imagine Peter Leitch watching Bern Nix play ) about the same ...

( i love Bern Nix ! and it dont i take all he plays litteral either i can see it s a little "twisted" but so uniquely and beautifully )

or before i played with Brad Jones i heard same kind of comments on his playing ... well
i dont doubt why Ornette asked him since
( nor why people like Han loves him too )

n

Damon: You're a bass player. Could you do that gig better? Can you play in time for the whole set and read all the parts and improvise? Do you ever expect to be on a program with any of the bass players you knock so hard on this web site? What will you say to them? How would you expect them to evaluate your playing? You don't think much of Charlie Haden or Greg Cohen? Are you advising leaders about which bass player to hire or what to pay them? Are bassists supposed to work for less because you don't think much of their playing. Are you a musician or a critic, or a businessman?

I doubt I've ever met anyone who wants to be involved in the music scene more than you do. That's a good thing, and you do your share of work sincerely to get there. If you don't like some bass players work just make your own great bass music and leave the others alone. Do everything they do as well or better, and hope that when people evaluate whether you are worth your pay they do it in a fair minded way.

Hard to say. The concert I saw was really, really rough. I saw what I saw and heard what heard. He played in time and that was about it.

Sounds like maybe Cohen was having a bad night? Or in other words, on one night’s performance does not a musician’s relative talent rest. There’s a truckload of recorded evidence that suggests he’s got chops to burn.

Hey, Damon, as an aside I just caught In the Edges: The Grizzly Man Session on Sundance. Cool to see/hear you in the company of Richard Thompson & curious to learn how you hooked up that gig.

Joe, I think it’s fair for Damon to critique other bass players in this space, he’s got direct experience with both the instrument and a significant percentage of the recorded body of work. More to the point, his words are opinion, just like practically everyone else who sounds off here. So far I’ve disagreed with some of his negative appraisals (Haden, Cohen, etc.) but he’s certainly entitled to voice his perspective.

I hear you on the problems of slighting musicians who are trying to earn their daily bread and stay true to their artistic integrity in the process, as well as the virtues of clamming up and focusing on one’s own endeavors, but does anything written here really amount to a hill of beans in the larger scheme of things?

"Damon: You're a bass player. Could you do that gig better? Can you play in time for the whole set and read all the parts and improvise?"

With due respect to Mr. Morris:
Maybe, maybe not.
I took lessons in those things and I work on it, I read everyday at home. My music is something else, so that part of my skill set is mostly practiced in a hypothetical way. I do try to keep up on those things at home.
However, if that was my main interest I'd work my ass off on it like I have on the things that do interest me.
Still, Greg Cohen is around 50 years old, and working in a different but related area of music than me. He is not one of my peers.
His peers are Lindberg, Dresser, Helias, Parker, Dieter Manderschied, Lisle Ellis etc.
A better question would be if they could do it better.

"Do you ever expect to be on a program with any of the bass players you knock so hard on this web site?
What will you say to them?"

- I have not knocked any bass players very hard, normally I am talking about how great they are. My point with Haden was that I like his peers better, and he gets way more play.

"How would you expect them to evaluate your playing?"

-Based on how I played, I don't think people have been so easy on my playing. I feel like I get to be in some great situations and
somtimes beyond my abilty. If I was able to support myself from playing and get gigs on that level I'd expect people to be very critical.
It comes with the territory, the world is watching.

"You don't think much of Charlie Haden or Greg Cohen? Are you advising leaders about which bass player to hire or what to pay them? Are bassists supposed to work for less because you don't think much of their playing. Are you a musician or a critic, or a businessman?"

- I am part musician, part fan/listener. I listen to the music at least as much as I practice and play it.
So that is mostly the pespective I am coming from when I am geeking out on bagatellen.
Anyway, you have been around long enough to know that people get gigs based on a lot things, and playing is only one of them.

FREE BLOW JOB ?

call 0800 ( Paris )

n

"His peers are Lindberg, Dresser, Helias, Parker, Dieter Manderschied, Lisle Ellis etc.
A better question would be if they could do it better."

NO ...the question is that you feel and hear and expect and and rave and would love too materialize "something else" than what you ve heard Cohen playing himself

and we d all love to hear it too if you do that

and that s fine and we re all OPENED to NEXT

very positive

just we dont need to STEP on today or before to get there

n

DEAR FOLKS : what about a NEW THREAD ;

EAI and CHOPS TODAY !

Breaking News

cheers

n

Hey Damon, that question about Grizzly Man wasn’t rhetorical, I’m genuinely interested…

I support what Damon plays on bass. I've played with Damon. I don't see Haden or Cohen on Bagatellen busting on him.

"Hey Damon, that question about Grizzly Man wasn’t rhetorical, I’m genuinely interested…"

-It is still a good enough case in point. My friend HK hooked me up with it. I got to use some of my specific skill set in the bear fight and my duo with RIchard, there are other parts I could have done better.

"I support what Damon plays on bass. I've played with Damon. I don't see Haden or Cohen on Bagatellen busting on him."

- Thanks Joe. I think a difference is you are at a level where those guys are your peers, although I obviously prefer your work to theirs. To me they are super famous, and I don't feel like their careers are going to be hurt by honest opinons on a website.

It's a community that's more open to you than you seem to think. Give those guys a chance to like you.

Also, to Calrify my postition, the Masada string trio is not gig I would like to have.
It is just that I'd like to be excited about buying those cds and hearing that music played well.
Friedlander and Feldman are first rate string virtuosos. Cohen is a decent working bass player, he does not seem to come from the string playing tradition at all.

Obviously, he is there because he knows the forms and that music really well from playing in Masada proper.
Where it falls apart for me as a listener is that in that situation, in order to interact with the other two, arco technique and command of the entire fingerboard and the same level of virtuosity of the other two.
Also, I guess I just can't help comparing it to Arcado.

"
It's a community that's more open to you than you seem to think. Give those guys a chance to like you. "

and GOD will Follow ( and cash will flow ?)

( or ? )

----------

Dear Mister Damon Smith
you direct contact shows : page not found
is that a decision or a mistake ?

n

Hmmm, You are right. It comes up with this:
http://69.36.177.169/cgi-bin/www.balancepointacoustics.com

should be this: http://www.balancepointacoustics.com/

Thanks Damon

will use it later

bed time here
n

Noel suggests a new thread on Bagatellen. I have a proposal. This month it is 40 years since an unknown Jimi Hendrix arrived in London.

"Friedlander and Feldman are first rate string virtuosos. Cohen is a decent working bass player, he does not seem to come from the string playing tradition at all."

This is exactly why I love being an electric guitarist. No pedagogy. No tradition of correctness.
So we get Bilnd Lemon Jefferson, Jimi Hendrix, Derek Bailey and Noel Akchote (who is obviously a unique knucklehead :)) and a million others. Global. All new music. We create the whole thing ourselves. No classical institution cares about any of us. Hurrah!
Bring on Jimi!

Amen to that.

Thanks for the reply, Damon.

We’ve had a couple Jimi threads in the past…

http://www.bagatellen.com/archives/frontpage/000318.html

http://www.bagatellen.com/archives/frontpage/000725.html

…but I’d be pleased as punch to hatch another. And while we’re on the subject of ripping guitar players, how’s about a stray comment or two on that lonely Lightnin’ Slim thread :(

"No tradition of correctness."

not at all, each one since the start brings his own radical views and toolbox to achieve what he / she wants ...

it s like i ve always seen ( somehow ) Arto Lindsay and Ribot as the "followers" of Freddie Green and Eddie Durham ( the Kansas City, Lester Clayton 5tet )

and you could link a lot and dicover always more ... one thing i ve asked students earlier was : Bring a picture of 3 of your top favourite players and without producing any sound start to learn their positions and BODY GESTURE

you can learn the Keith Richards open tunings if you like ( they all come from somewhere too ) but you cant quite get the same right harm falling down on the strings like death on troubled pilgrims ....

take care
n

"Who the fuck are you to make statements like that? Perhaps you might provide us with something approaching justification for such a remark? And name someone who HAS produced "a consistently brilliant body of work." A full name might be useful too, but then again maybe you prefer to remain anonymous (I can certainly understand why). Christ, I knew a Zorn thread on Bagatellen was asking for trouble."

You're a lousy editor, writer, and musician. Who the fuck are you to make statements about other peoples music? People have opinions, some differ from your own. Thats life my friend.

Some people who have produced a consistently brilliant body of work:Richard Wagner, Joe Morris, Keith Rowe, Beethoven, Cecil Taylor, Ingmar Bergmann, Picasso, Elliot Carter.....

I really love the
Hendrix in the west
record or whatever, I've only got a tape copy from ages ago
its mix of various gig 69 70 I think
some at Berkeley
sometimes with either Billy Cox or Redding on bass
and always rather Mitchell on drums (which I prefer from Buddy Miles but that's something lese)

the Johnny B Goode and also slowed down Blue suede shoes I really like

and also... Sergent Pepper really fast....

pffffffffffff

Cuthbert:

May I please add Xenakis to your list?

ANd LOVER MAN

pfffff

a whole programm...

also this picture of Zorn

I've seen the same nearly with Thurston Moore...

Ah ah... like a MUST DO (for kinda... fame-dom level!!!)

its a bit of show off no... but I 'm fine with both this guys works and stuff... so... just to say...

Its like Lenny Kravitz picture in the middle of all his instruments... so many guitars, drums, keyboard, percussions.... like that one at the back of Pink Floydd...

hummm... maybe I should pose with my guitars and turntables or something... ouillle... one never knows

oooopssss

yep

also this picture of Zorn

I've seen the same nearly with Thurston Moore...

Ah ah... like a MUST DO (for kinda... fame-dom level!!!)

its a bit of show off no... but I 'm fine with both this guys works and stuff... so... just to say...

Its like Lenny Kravitz picture in the middle of all his instruments... so many guitars, drums, keyboard, percussions.... like that one at the back of Pink Floydd...

hummm... maybe I should pose with my guitars and turntables or something... ouillle... one never knows

oooopssss

yep

ehh

for once I posted two... "normal" messages no!

comme quoi

ah ah ah

i like that picture.
a professor of mine has his desk stacked with papers (at least 20cm worth of dead trees covering the whole surface) and behind him, only a small picture of a guy's office which is ten times as bad -underneath he has written "things could be worse".

so i used this pic as a background in my pc, for the next time someone mentions anything about my pathetic collection

yeah I'm fine with it

everyone's probably got their... maNners... oh shit... like... I dont get the word in english... like at the top its "maniacs"... but what 's the name and not that extreme as "manniac"... but... manners... manies... euH... ONE N OR TWO N... I dont know.
or collections... quite close

I don't mind teh picture of zorn but i would wonder why someone would want to display that they have so many records. I think i saw the same thurston thing you did bellenger and I thought 'that's why his music is so lame; he hasn't investigated any music in depth: he just collects surfaces.'

but i'm one of those that think sonic youth represents the extreme indirect proportion of musicality and critical popularity.
To say that better: they have very little music that reatins interest after one listen (or that i would choose to listen to again), and they maintain an extremely passionate, well-funded, ubiquitous gaggle of fans and professional music journalists.

so it made me think dismissive thoughts when i saw thurston with his records (I think he was interviewed briefly for a recent cecil taylor doc i saw; he said nothing per the usual) and embarrassed for zorn when i saw him with his

"You're a lousy editor, writer, and musician."
Thanks Cuthbert for the straight talking. At least I can spell Elliott and Bergman. For someone who claims to know their work well enough to declare it consistently brilliant I would have thought you might have noticed this.

"You're a lousy editor, writer, and musician. Who the fuck are you to make statements about other peoples music? People have opinions, some differ from your own. Thats life my friend.

Some people who have produced a consistently brilliant body of work:Richard Wagner, Joe Morris, Keith Rowe, Beethoven, Cecil Taylor, Ingmar Bergmann, Picasso, Elliot Carter....."

-So Warburton gave you a bad review at some point? I'll agree with some of what you said, but Picasso, great as he was turned a lot of boring work, especially late drawings. No question about his innovations and importance.

Just because the bulk of Zorn's work does not fit into my own personal esthetic does not mean it is any less brilliant.
His body of work is filled with ideas and creativity and more importantly realizations of those ideas.

I think I played a gig with Richard Wagner. It was like a free jazz oompa band. No wait, that wasn't me.
Thanks for the mention anyway.

"Some people who have produced a consistently brilliant body of work:Richard Wagner, Joe Morris, Keith Rowe, Beethoven, Cecil Taylor, Ingmar Bergmann, Picasso, Elliot Carter....."

AND YOUUUUUUU !!!!
The happy - Lucky Winner of the game :

---- IN BED WITH SCHUBERT !!!!!!!!! -----

( First Price a Week end for two in Corsica with
the composer of your choice depending on seasons )

enjoy .... but use HEADPHONES please
when you talk cause it stinks inside your mouth a little

n

Are CARL KRESS & GEORGE BARNES
Improv or EAI ?

thanks in advance
n

You really must try to cut down on your use of hallucinogens, Noel.

I always loved this particular picture of zorn, the pure geek style, skinny, with big glasses and different socks ... he was young at the time, he's not so young anymore ... this fellowship is supposed to be given to guys not for their past achievements but for their potential... yeah sure at fifty past zorn has everything to give !

I discovered zorn with the cd jeux de femme cruel/ naked city 6 years ago ... twas quite a shock, i didn't know that kind of music at the time.

A zorn cd I love is Cartoon/SM (love the Bellmer drawing on the cover) ... the Cat O'Nine Tails is awesome, the "music for children" too ... love the spanking you hear at one point ...

Zorn music is one thing, but his role in the downtown music scene and in the avant-garde/contemporary music scene in general is something that you have to take into account when you assess his carrier.

Look at Naked City'line up : frisell horvitz frith baron.
Frith had nothing to prove and he accepted to play bass to be part of Naked City !

And all his collaborations (bailey, george lewis, leo smith, kaiser, kronos quartet, etc)

I discovered lots of things through Zorn ...

But yeah I regret one thing regarding zorn ... he favored Patton over Eye for Moonchild ... Eye is SO much better ...

Regards

"You really must try to cut down on your use of hallucinogens,"

i should probably start you mean ?

Besides coffee, reading and long walks i ve been very clean the whole morning

i should think maybe opening a Haute-Cotes de Nuits 1995 , or some Vosne Romanee 98 ? with a slice of very fresh Chablis and a proper Baguette ( still warm ...you know )

a good link for you all :

http://www.univers-fromages.com/

bon apetit

n

does anyone knows here the collector album of BARNEY WILEN on MPS entitled

" DEAR PROF LEARY"

( havent ever seen it reissued even japanese who did the Barney - Lorenzo Bandini reissues )

?

you d hear what hallucinogens can do in these areas

Best
n

for you interest about ten years ago in LYON (fr) the great genius cook Philippe Chavent
opened an amazing place named LA TOUR ROSE ( the pink tower ) and he was desperately bored by most of the customers who could afford his meals and suites ( 13 suites each designed by famous traditional and less trad Silk houses as they are in Lyon )

so what he did because there s an old tradition there of critics who do : Cinema Nouvelle Vague, Free Jazz and Jazz, Gastronomy, Wine, Oils and Cigars

HE BOOKED MUSICIANS to play and INVITED THEM - the deal was all expensies paid, no fee ( knowing each artist was about a good 2000 USD per head and per day, plus he runs the Opera restaurant LES MUSES upstairs, and a BOUCHON where he started and know his mother kept it )

BILL DIXON came once and for a week end and stayed 3 weeks, i played there with Sam Rivers, Thollot, Hymas and Paul Rogers ,
also with Coxhill and Mark Sanders and many many other times ... also David Murray, Sunny Murray probably William Parker maybe some of you here even played there ....

just watch :
http://www.saveursdumonde.net/ency-voy////////france/tourrose.htm

very free jazz, unfortunately the nights were so long there and the cave so amazing that at some point they he had to give back all the keys of his own place and cook to refund ....

it s only few years later when i came back that the prices where ( we didnt pay anything at first ) on the card and you could see what s the price of a Cognac from 1902 or 04 .... and we had quite some bottles every night

FREE JAZZ they call it !

n

I see you are on the good maps, Noël;

Je vois que vous êtes sur les bons plans, Noël.

Salut les Frenchies!

Any fresh info about the current musical activities at La Tour Rose anyone? Having attended a couple of fine gigs there yeeeeeaars ago (Matthew Shipp & Paul Motian trios), I was wondering if they were still up to something these days. Not that they ever had a really dense schedule (very far from that actually) but I have to say I keep some sweet memories of great piano music and old Armagnac at the bar...

Anyway being recently back in Lyon after 3-4 years spent in NYC, I feel quite frustrated when it comes to hear some challenging music. So if some readers are in the know, I'd take any recommendation...

And congratulations to Mr Zorn on his McArthur thing! At the very least he deserves the money for his activities as artistic director (The Stone) and executive producer (Tzadik). Hoping he'll keep up the good work...

"At the very least he deserves the money for his activities as artistic director (The Stone) and executive producer (Tzadik). Hoping he'll keep up the good work..."

Does Zorn really "at the very least" deserve a $500,000 for being a capitalist?

Really?

Francophonia .... what should we do ?

Repondre en francais ?

n

capitalism rewards capitalists Mr. Fastow, so it makes perfect sense

capitalism rewards capitalists Mr. Fastow, so it makes perfect sense

"capitalism rewards capitalists Mr. Fastow, so it makes perfect sense"

Indeed it does!

So does this mean we agree that Zorn got the grant for 'extra-musical' resons?

Excellent! Another great day for *our* culture!

P.S. I too "love the spanking you hear at one point" and indeed, here's "Hoping he'll keep up the good work..."

This made me hungry... now... Watery mouth...
This La Tour Rose seems very interresting... indeed
maybe we could propose John Zorn a record-food project or something...

J'AI FAIM
IKURA

Alexandre

ANARCHY in The CAPITALISMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

yo rock

THE PROBLEM IS : CAPITALISM IS FAR MUCH DEEPER-STRONGER THAN ITS CONDRADICTORS ....

and 90 % ( being gentle here ) of EAI and whatever "new shit" around BEHAVES like
any Mobile phone company

they ACCUMULATE GOODS (MORE alway more ) for their own SOCIETY
POINTS + POINTS = MORE

we still all can have the freedom of choice of WHICH tee shirt you wanna wear ( Che, Bob Marley, Springsteen, jackass, Gustave Courbet, FMPFestival, Antibes-Juans les Pins, Redbull, J&B, Coke, Knitting Factory, Pepsi, Tonic etc .... ) ALL THE SAME at this level

so PLEASE dont behave like people we have in europe ... all LEFTISTS, ALL Anarchist ( but Exhibited only ) in real ALL CAPITALISTs because we all live in the same world

( and never forget : HOW MANY THIRD WORLD people on this thread ? dont forget that the price of a G4 Lapoptop = 10 years of salary in many countries )

Something else ?

cheers
n

as far as IMPROV ( any kind here ) doesnt ITSELF produce CASH ( or under 5 % of the whole turn over ? ... and let me be fair Opera does even less, French Radio France Festival, Montpellier, used to print a share of about 1.44 % FROM ticket sales on the whole budget ... 1995 or so , i dont think it passed 2 % since )

so where are we ?

RECORD SALES : if you breakheaven
YOU RE LUCKY

SHOWS : 10 to 30 People (sometime if names or festivals a little more but not 200 people unless Festivals and very special events, - Jon - Erst, you may get Tonic beyond 100 /120 tickets on the festival but you d have 5 shows per night plus expensies - nothing personal here but probably the most ADVANCED festival worldwide TODAY in the area, NO ? correct me if wrong )

so CAPITALISM ...fine

but THE MONEY COMES FROM SOMEHWERE and that is always : PUBLIC FINNANCES and PRIVATE FUNDS ( even very private or direct as it s pretty impossible to sustain yourself just doing that kind of stuff )

now as we re on a ZORN thread
his shares from Label, Shows, Own Compisitons etc are Pretty different
and that doesnt come from even bigger funds
( cause you know ... antisemtism is always easy and not too far still )

it comes from what he RAISED at every level
and as one can easily see here even , he STARTED and GOT EXCITED many people who may not have even entered this area if he didnt OFFER all what he did

n

PS : i also could be critical about this and that in his productions but : - #1 who the fuck am i to do so (unless masturbating on why i dont get THE gig ) ? and # 2 - how much that count in the balance here ?

and believe me i am far from being a 100 % Zorn Fan ( though i ve loved A LOT before, from very first Naked City tour, to yankees, to news for Lulu to parachute years to 99% what they did with Eugne Chadbourne and Classic Guide to strategy and blabla ) but i ve seen a good example in the past :

- "BALLADS " / DEREK BAILEY
the first Derek record for SO MANY PEOPLE who d never even heard about
( behind the 300 / 800 Worldwide Fans since years )

i m just wondering what would be if Zorn had released three or more
AMM or Keith albums by now

Best
n

IKURA ...non

SOUPE D HUITRES GLACEE oui

n

*KAPOWWW*

[thread put out of its misery]

Fin?! Mais pas sans les huitres!

"*KAPOWWW*

[thread put out of its misery]"

Aw grandpa, bedtime already?

[Hand-to-heart it's good to know Adam Smith has a friend in Bagatellen.]

But really now, the *first* thing the New York Times had to say about Zorn (not that they really know anything) was that he was the "president and founder of a record company"

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/arts/19geni.html?ref=arts

Yes, hooray for John Zorn and yes, thank goodness "he STARTED and GOT EXCITED many people who may not have even entered this area"--lord knows how hard it was to find/consume/be excited by the music before John Zorn came on the scene, (certainly everyone has seen "Rising Tones Cross") and indeed the contributions of those "started and excited" by Zorn have not yet begun to be estimated--though the most cursory listen indicates we're the richer. I tell ya, like the arrival of the wheel that John Zorn.

But isn't *anyone* even slightly sickened by the shift away from rewarding artistic achievement (Braxton, Roach, Taylor, Coleman) to rewarding popularization and business accumen with a little music on the side?

In defense of our beloved parent culture, the choice of Zorn after Vandermark makes perfect sense. And try as I might, I cannot come up with another record company president who can play the horn like Zorn. (Though I can think of a few people who can play Zorn into the ground who, believe it or not, aren't even *vice presidents.*)

I owe the guy a free trip to Munich. He's OK by me.

"But isn't *anyone* even slightly sickened by the shift away from rewarding artistic achievement (Braxton, Roach, Taylor, Coleman) to rewarding popularization and business accumen with a little music on the side?"

- Long before forming Tzadik Zorn had already racked up a pretty big list of artistic achievements. The game pieces alone have to be given credit for being a new idea.
Not only that a big chunk of his work as a producer must be seen as artistic.
As I understand it the projects by other artists he produces are his ideas more often than not.
I saw two evenings of his composed music last year and outside of the Masada string trio performance, all of it was well concieved and well played.

Tzadik operates at a $20,000+ loss every year. There is an interview with Zorn where he states this fact. The Stone is a gift to musicians that Zorn funds. The nicest venue in NY. The guy started out traveling around the US with Chadbourne in a van playing with a softball in his saxophone. He was attacked for playing duck calls in a bucket of water in the early 80's. Then he started with his game pieces and things started to turn for him. His work "Cobra" is an essential part of the history of improvised music. He was celebrated by Peter Watrous in the NY Times and his career took off. His whole life has been music. He has NEVER made any attempt to do anything but what he felt was honest. He made great recordings for many people including Derek Bailey (who thought of him like a son) Milford Graves, Leo Smith and loads of others who seem not to be connected to his other activities. I hardly know him but I have a huge amount of respect for his integrity and artistry. As he once said to me "we are on the same side". Give the guy a break. He's helped loads of very edgy musicians of every stripe get heard one way or another. Give anyone in this a friggin' break for Christ's sake!

I couldn’t agree more with what you just said, Joe Morris.

Hell yeah you got to show some respect to Zorn if you care a little bit about music. And that INDEPENDENTLY of his body of work as a musician and composer, which one may find lousy or pure genius or more likely somewhere in between, given the diversity of his output. Personally I used to be a big fan of almost all I heard from him until the mid to late nineties. Then, like many people, I started to get bored with the never-ending, over-abundant, ultra-redundant Masada discography. As well as with some quite dubious incursions into “modern compositions” and boring film music. Also I’m not totally convinced by his improvisational skills and choices. That being said, this leaves a good amount of awesome records he’s responsible for (Cobra, Spillane, Spy vs Spy, Elegy, all Naked City, Kristallnacht, the early Masada 4tet and many more…). So for me that should be enough to justify a major reward for his PAST artistic achievements.

Now more to the point: according to their website “the MacArthur Fellows Program awards unrestricted fellowships to talented individuals who have shown extraordinary originality and dedication in their creative pursuits and a marked capacity for self-direction. There are three criteria for selection of Fellows: exceptional creativity, promise for important future advances based on a track record of significant accomplishment, and potential for the fellowship to facilitate subsequent creative work.”

http://www.macfound.org/site/c.lkLXJ8MQKrH/b.959463/k.9D7D/Fellows_Program.htm

Based on that, I believe JZ fully qualifies, am I right? Regarding the 3rd criterion which mentions “subsequent creative work”, I tend to think that the involvement of our man in a record company and a music venue is now becoming MORE IMPORTANT than his own personal artistic production that shows signs of decline in my opinion. What’s wrong with that? To those who started to use the word “capitalism”: WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU MEAN? Apparently both Tzadik and The Stone are NON-PROFIT structures. I’m not sure about the first one but for the latter 100% of the money from admissions goes to the performers. Is this capitalism? It’s obvious that you need $$$ to have all this working and I’m sure JZ is very well connected and a professional fundraiser (“he works hard for the money, so hard for it honey”) but again what’s wrong with that? Especially if it’s to give visibility and distribution to a part of the unrecognized musical avant-garde – here I have in mind this fringe of the Japanese experimental/noise scene which would still be probably unknown to the western world if Zorn hadn’t done what he did.

JZ is more and more in a position to shed some light on WHOEVER he likes. At least he did that very much for the past decade. And that’s OK with me even though I certainly don’t agree with many of his choices. Actually that’s more than OK since he’s one of the very few who does that at such a pace… I would give Werner X. Uehlinger grant money anytime for him to continue what he started 30 years ago. Dedicated people who contribute to “Art” (whatever that means) by making it, encouraging it, promoting it, supporting it, etc are ALL important to the field. So Zorn may be running out of ideas (at least compared to those he had at his “carrier peak” – again whatever that means and even though this sounds like entrepreneur shit), he may not be the most extraordinary sax player ever (that he never pretended to be by the way), he may be too self-confident and successful (sure, nobody likes that) BUT try to remove him from the map, go back to the early 80s and SEE WHAT HAPPENS!!!

Jay Z certainly is a capitlist ... with the bling bling, the boat and the big-boobed chicks ...
But JZ, with the japanese porn, the military trouser, the lousy tee-shirts and the same flat for the last 30 years ? ... mmh ... doesn't have the pose.
And if being a capitalist means running a label to get your music out, and then the music of others out, and set up a free concert venue to have challenging music played, and more often than not not your own (truly challenging ... not diana krall, you know ...) then yeah, even if we don't have a french word for "entrepreneur", i love capitalism ...(christ never thought i would say that one day)

and i don't think he was that wealthy when he began ... didn't he organize concerts in his own place ? and look at the poor fellow on the picture : does he seem well fed ? ... out of the point, okay sorry.

regarding la tour rose : no concert announced, seems like they found out that hiring jazz musicians was to expensive ... even for free ;)
http://www.tour-rose.com/

Jean-Claude : good luck for the challenging concerts in Lyon, you'll certainly need some time to adapt after New York ...

I just got the Evan Parker on Tzadik. It is kind a of a follow up to "Process and Reality" on FMP. I am on the track 6, so far it is beautiful, dense music.

Some were expecting shit flying on this thread ... well they were wrong the shit flew elsewhere .

Shit is sooooo unreliable.