You don't have "Gittin' to Know Y'all" (MPS) or the track from the 12th German Jazz Festival, on "Born Free" (Scout). The latter is only an excerpt of a 35-minute performance, the boot of which is staggering. Lester's orchestral shit is a mind-fuck. And trust me, it DOES count.

Gettin' To Know Y'all isn't an AEoC date; it's the three horn players from the AEoC with a bunch of other folks. If I was gonna include that, I'd have to include Alan Silva's Seasons (which I do own, but which I don't place on this list) and probably some others I'm not aware of.

I know who's on those, but I will remain in disagreement with leaving the MPS off the list. If you're going to include "Go Home," then the other orchestral dates are certainly part of the game (at least, those composed by members of the group). Besides, including the early Nessa sides definitely begs some difference and inconsistencies among personnel - two of those are without Jarman.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but as I've learned many times, it's best to have salve for all the nitpickers ready before you post something like that.

Oh, and if I was really going to nitpick, I'd mention the 45rpm single on Saravah...

>the 45rpm single on Saravah...

Which, I believe, is included as bonus tracks on the Comme A La Radio CD.

I once suggested to Mosaic that they collect all the AEC Paris recordings and release them as a box. Michael Cuscuna himself kindly answered. Along the lines of, "Too many competing copyrights held by people who fucked over the band." Too bad. It would be nice to just have a way to handle all this great material without having to embark on a grail-quest. Yeah, I'm lazy, a terrible record collector.

"Which, I believe, is included as bonus tracks on the Comme A La Radio CD."

Good to know - I have the stuff on vinyl, and was not aware those were available as bonus material.

And, to echo djll's point, "Chi-Congo" has had how many different LP issues? Decca France/UK, Carson (France), Paula (USA), and then a Japanese Toshiba variant of the Carson, and some possibly domestic bootleg that turned up in the States a few years back... I mean, what the hell?

Phil, you forgot to include your mailing address so someone could send you a cookie.

Did I accidentally scroll past the content in this entry? Perhaps my browser is acting funny...

>>the 45rpm single on Saravah...
>Which, I believe, is included as bonus tracks on the Comme A La Radio CD.

Those two tracks ("Le Moral Necessaire" and "Je Suis Un Savage") from the 45 with Alfred Panou are not on that Fontaine CD, but are included in the compilation "Le Grenier De Saravah Vol 2, Rare & Unreleased Tracks"; "Je Suis" is also included on "Bilongo: A Third Compilation of Modern Afro Rhythms" (Comet).

"Thanks to everyone at Downtown Music Gallery, Kim's Mondo Music, Other Music, the Sound Station, Amazon and eBay who helped me in this quest. Now what?"
Listen to 'em and enjoy!

In responce to this topic, I posted a link to the "AEoC - Ancient to the Future" project a couple hours ago, but it somehow disappeared. Was it deleted on purpose? If so, would it be possible to hear from moderators, as to why?

OK, here you go again then...

Speaking of which, would you people rather see box editions of already published material, or never published - a la Ayler on Revenant? In the latter case there are probably fewer complications with competing copyrights...

Yeah, I'm willing to bet there are a lot of bootlegs from that period floating around that haven't seen the light of day commercially. Though most of what I've seen offered has, conversely, been from the early 1980s.

If there were any AEC concerts broadcast by European radio, odds are good they have the tapes in their archives. But from the late 60's-early 70's that seems unlikely, given how underground the band was, even in France.

I dunno, ORTF was pretty good about taping stuff, even from equally "underground" units like those of Frank Wright, Sunny Murray and Alan Silva. Some of that has been floating around. I've seen enough mention of ORTF tapes in various discographies that it would be hard to believe that AEC material wasn't archived as well.

I'll forward your questions to Daniel Caux, who might have some light to shed on this particular issue.

Djil, I don't know about discographies, but I remember attending AEC concerts in France during the 70s, there were always people recording on cassettes. And I can tell you, they weren't not so underground.
Dan, sure there must be some recordings at the ORTF. You should ask Stephane Rives also, because he is working in the archives department.

Well, if you check out the page I referenced above, there are a handful recordings from the French period there (some of them probably overlapping with commercially issued), and a few dozens from mid-70s. But from the looks of it, there should be a high chance that more of the early Scandinavian and German tapes may exist...

howdy fellas.

going back to the original list...what are the preferred labels for the AEC releases? recently at my local record shop i've come across Certain Blacks on the Inner City label and also on the french(?) America label. also...how do the lp's compare to the cd re-issues. i'm sure there's no easy way to answer this, but any opinions would help.

@mudslide:

Certain Blacks may be the nadir of their output IMO. Anything with Julio Finn and Chicago Beau on it, avoid.

If you can find People In Sorrow, that's the best of their Paris period or practically any period. Although one should four-star Bap-Tizum and Les Stances A Sophie in a fave-AEC list. Nice Guys is a great "pop" AEC album, a good intro.

Ha! The exact opposite of my sentiments on Beauchamp and Finn, but don't take our words for it... listen for yourself! If you like "Black Gipsy" or "Blase," I doubt you'll have problems with this one. To sweeten matters, the funky William Howell is the drummer on "Certain Blacks," adding some nice breaks here and there.

The CD probably sounds great (those be the reports I've heard of the Free Americas), but if you want vinyl, go with the America original, which to me sounds quite good.

thanks for the input Tom and Clifford! i think i have to agree with Clifford on this one. i like what Finn and Beauchamp add to "black gipsy" and love the title track from "blase" (but have not heard the rest of that one). i will also definitely check out "people in sorrow" as soon as i can track it down!

FYI that remarkable Nessa box is running low, I believe.

Yeah, I agree with Djll, I'm not too keen on Certain Blacks, but People In Sorrow is a treat. Also: With Fontella Bass.

Bap-Tizum . . . hi-octane AEC, the recording is a bit thin, but otherwise it's well worth hearing.

Nice Guys is a perfectly fine second-stringer, but apart from that and Urban Bushmen (a well-recorded, fairly representative concert recording) their ECM output was disappointing, as was the later batch for DIW.

My favourite: Fanfare for the Warriors.

What's peculiar about the AEC is that their recordings often don't give any indication as to why they've been so influential.

no, that's the funniest thing about this thread. I have most of the titles Phil lists above, missing maybe four, but I don't think even the best ones probably do justice to how good they likely were live (I only saw them once, much much later).

You're right, Jon. The AEC did excellent live shows, but their recordings are often below par. Theirs is a big discography containing surprisingly few highlights.

I chalk the disparity up to the inherent theatricality of the AEoC. There’s a huge visual/interactive element to their live work that gets excised on the recordings, especially when they turn to the “little instruments” in their arsenal. By my lights, those passages routinely are among the least engaging on their concert albums & almost always signal a drop in congruity/energy. You see/hear it too with bands like Ra’s Arkestra, but it’s most noticeable/problematic with the AEoC.

There are at least two officially released live videos of the Art Ensemble, which are from the 80s but are well worth watching. One is called "Live at the Jazz Showcase" from 1981, and another is their Paris concert with Cecil Taylor from 1984, a monster show, maybe 2,5 hours long.

Yeah, I rarely find myself pulling out AEC records, and when I do, it's often easily digested works like "Les Stances a Sophie" or "Phase One" (Ohnedaruth fucking smokes!), or "A Jackson in Your House." I used to listen to "Congliptious" a lot too when I had it, but it got traded at some point for some odd reason...

Never had the chance to see them live, but I bet it would've been great - especially in their heyday.

The great AEC recordings seem to be weighted toward the Paris period. I didn't mention Tutankhamen and The Spiritual, those longer pieces (and "The Ninth Room") are great and very representative of AEC theatrics.

I find their ECM and later work to be kind of pat and routine. You get the feeling that their revolution is over and they're just hitting all their crowd-pleasers in every concert. I exclude Nice Guys from this judgement, which IMO is a perfect record. It's "pop" for them and there aren't many surprises on it, but still it's perfect.

I love Pikachu so much that I have posters and paintings hung up all around my room!

Destani, you should get some posters of Joseph Jarman in face paint!

Derek, maybe it's time to close this thread!

Sorry, Tom. Bags has a strictly enforced "All Threads Open, All the Time"* policy in place.

*- the exceptions being Clifford Allen's special dispensation & the handful of previously torpedoed debacles.

Since we're on an AEC trip down memory lane, (in the non-cynical sense of the term), I once walked into the Great American Music Hall in San Francisco in 1975 or 76 to hear the band. The large stage was packed to the back-teeth with instruments. The band members appeared, as usual 3 out of 5 in African paint, and instantly hit the most ferocious blow-out I think I had ever heard played live. Roscoe Mitchell began (if you please) with the bass-saxophone swaying perilously above his head, and he proceeded to blow the most monstrously exciting solo conceivable, while the band thundered viciously behind him. He did not stop for 25 minutes, although he did put the huge horn back onto its stand after about 10-12 minutes, but continued to play it in that position. Before this opening salvo was over, I counted at least 30 people who walked out.

I don't need to tell you how good the rest of the concert was.

FWIW, I prefer many of their records to either of the gigs I caught. And I also prefer a lot of Roscoe Mitchell's work alone and with others to anything AEC put out.

I'm with Walt, here. I've seen them many times, from 1978 to 2005 -- including a solid week at Yoshi's in 1995 -- and they generally work better on record, in my experience. And the records are uneven, as a whole and within their individual conceptions. My comments are not meant to diminish their contribution or overall importance to the music we hold dear, it's really to reconfirm the level of complexity and dynamism of the Art Ensemble's contribution and acknowledge the difficulty (for me, anyway) of characterizing their work. They confront the problems of art vs. entertainment, blackness in America, traditionalism vs. avantgardeism, and probably a host of other thorny dichotomies, via head-on and flanking attacks, with grace, humor, weirdness, good taste (and, it must be said, questionable taste), and always supreme musicianship.

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