The "whole Maneri thing" is most definitely NOT put to rest as far as I'm concerned. I have no more intention to ever retire the topic of Maneri music or musical meta-discourse than the topic of Eric Dolphy, Jack Wright, Anthony Braxton, or Dagmar Krause. Whether it continues on the pages of Bagatellen or elsewhere, it's a topic that's barely been chipped into. I've had every intention of responding to both Joe's meta-discourse position and his musicological position. I'm just slow, and I intentionally wanted to take a break from it for at least a week anyway at the time so all parties could cool off. I rather like the whole concept of letting people pick up threads at their own pace. There are dozens of old threads I've wanted to get back to, especially after listening to such and such record or thinking such and such thoughts. Anyway, that's my way of thinking about these things.

Al, sorry to see you caught in the crossfire of incipient discourse revolutions...

Al--I don't know, seems unfair to have MAP's hard & honest work all go to waste just because it got dumped on at length. How about reinstating it in a page without the comments enabled? Or do you fear the negative crud would just get transferred to other threads?

Tough call. While I imagine few of us enjoyed the nastier portions of that exchange, we're also adult enough to know it's gonna happen every so often. I think it's less the happening as such than the potential never-endingness of same. I would, though, second Nate's proposal to reinstate MAP's piece sans comments. No reason I can see to consign that to the google bin.

some typefucking on my part. you guys should see the lockwood piece in the features link.

"I've had every intention of responding to both Joe's meta-discourse position and his musicological position."

Just don't do it here, Mike.

Given my embarassingly and comically slow rate of completing planned writing projects (I'd estimate I'm roughly three years behind schedule on record reviews), I have a feeling you have nothing to worry about! Humans will probably run out of fossil fuels before I get around to that mess again... I'll probably quit writing on music less than one year anyway... It's just a fling... Time to get some record reviews done... Heck, maybe even some concert reviews posted in the same decade they happened!

I don't think anyone likes being called out in public, though I'm all for email exchanges on the very same things. It's just not worth it - especially if one is trying to build one's resume, who wants to point people to an article you thought good work but that 38 people shit on, just for the sake of shitting? I may be taking things a little too personally sometimes, but it usually isn't helpful, all the nitpicking and feather-ruffling.

Hey, if there is an interesting discourse going on, it'd be great to read - and it's cool to read some actual Cedar Bar arguments every once in a while - but slogging through the slags gets pretty tiresome for most anybody, I would think.

"slogging through the slags gets pretty tiresome for most anybody, I would think"

This has a different connotation for me in the UK, but still has truth to it!

:)

"Slogging through Slags" - sounds like a companion band to Crawling with Tarts :)

I think that the parts from the Edyta woman should be deleted. Completely. Forever. It should have happen immediately.

RE Maneri thread: My input is about correcting revisions to musical history that MAP made in his piece. I would have been happy to read that piece without those mistakes in it. I hope that when he fixes it it will be correct. If my input has had an effect on that then it was worth the effort. The Maneri's will be better served as well to have a correct and actual history written in that piece. They deserve real investigation for their work. Their artistic standing will actually be higher than they think and appreciated by more people when that real story is written. In this case the truth is better than fiction

So I assume ND"s version of "negative crud" does not mean:
revising history, idiotic interpretations reported as fact (see violin debate in Maneri thread, stylist vs. restructuralist,) promoting disagreements you've had on other websites with artists who are not participating the the conversation (see ND), calling people "asshole" (is that what you mean by "be creative" AL? If it is, I think that by the time I retaliated I was very creative with it. ) and other names from the jump, and then repeatedly because you don't like what they wrote ? Maybe this list of negative crud could be addressed first?

You can run this website like the exclusive, mannered little roundtable that it is, if you want. But those kinds of clubs usually don't advertise or publish their discussion for the World to see. They meet in closed rooms where no inferior outsiders are allowed to challenge the members and therefore it's safe for them to feel superior even when they are insulting people or don't know what they're talking about.

Can anyone please provide a link? What's this "whole Maneri thing" all about?

I guess Al just deleted it. It was a very long appreciation of "Maneri music" by MAP, followed by an incredible array of comments (even by bagatellen standards), many of them quite personal. Maybe you could google "lockwood holy trinity" and see if it comes up.

It wasn't merely an "appreciation", Walt, it was hyper-appreciation, in accordance with MAP's usual brand of supersonic enthusiasm.

As for Joe's comment that

"no inferior outsiders are allowed to challenge the members and therefore it's safe for them to feel superior"

do I detect a note of paranoia? This is an open forum, and he and his comments are welcome. It would be nice if he'd try to be civil, though; some of his posts have been boorish and insulting.

it wasn't deleted, as Al said:

http://www.bagatellen.com/archives/features/000893.html

I thought Al said he was "deleting the page in its entirety."

Maybe he had a change of heart....or he hasn't gotten around to it yet. Dunno.

I read the discussion around Maneri and I must admit, this has to be one of the most bizarre discourses I'd come across. Who is this Edyta woman? Is she for real or was that just a bad April Fool's joke played by someone? Unbelievable!

As for Joe's comment that

"no inferior outsiders are allowed to challenge the members and therefore it's safe for them to feel superior"

Hmmm. Maybe I'd read that wrong. Who's the "them" there refer to, anyway?

This whole thread has reminded me all along of USENET flame wars of the 80's, which I already lived through. A lot of righteous energy...personal attacks being used as justification for personal attacks, and a lot of quality discussion about important subjects being obscured by meta arguments about who wronged who, and then further meta arguments about that. It's really quite boring.

The difference between the 'net then and the 'net now (IMHO) is that back then no one in my experience seemed to think their relentless flames were needed to correct history, per se.

I think when someone like MAP makes a questionable analogy on a blog about a musician, it may be silly, but it certainly doesn't decide history. It isn't presented as anything other than opinion, isn't being archived in university libraries, and isn't changing the reality of the verifiable recorded history of creative music. It's a guy talking on a blog to a tiny audience of other opinionated fans and friends.

I spent 6 years of my life working at a store that primarily sold fanzines. (Remember them?) Same battles went on in the 'zine world in the 80's all the time. Who really remembers or cares about the big shakeups between musicians, writers, and readers in the pages of Sound Choice? Remember the big controversey over Andrew White's open letter in that 'zine?

I look in on blogs like Bags because I'm a fan as well as a player, and like to learn frolm other fans, whether I agree with them or not, and because I find it to be incredibly cool that there are people with the passion to bother. History though, is found elsewhere.

Oh, and another thing...Over the years I've met 3 people who all claimed to be the keepers of the true archive or history of Lowell Davidson. I wish one of you would get some of this archives out so the public could share in the enjoyment. I've been curious for 15 years now...

I have never claimed to be the keeper of the true archive of Lowell Davidson. Just someone who worked with him for a bunch of years. Unfortunately, with the exception of a few trio cassettes that I have, given to me by John Voigt, some of Lowell's index card scores, that were divided between myself, Voigt, and Tom Plsek after they came into John's hands, and some recordings that I made with Lowell. I am in touch with the mother of Lowell's daughter about releasing these tapes. I consider that she owns the rights to material produced by Lowell. It's a slow process. Releasing any of it without securing her rights would be theft. The rest of his true archive has disappeared. There were hundreds of tapes in Lowell's house.

Voigt, Plsek and I have performed his scores seperately and together. I played a few with my group at the Stone in September. Call me up sometime and we'll get together and play the one's I have. I have about 150. There are about 500 more. You can listen to the tapes then too.

I don't know when you last researched anything without using the internet. Libraries are all about the internet. Kids do all of their homework research using the internet.

In this case as I wrote, I responded after years of not responding to similar histories. I stand by what I wrote.

[Sekowski] Who is this Edyta woman? Is she for real or was that just a bad April Fool's joke played by someone? Unbelievable!

[djll] Who's Joe Morris?

You'll have to forgive us West Coasters if we're ignorant about Joe Morris or Edyta or "the Maneri question." We're all wrapped up in pissing contests with Damon Smith. (Who's Damon Smith?)

I'd rather talk about Lowell, actually. Brilliant artist and composer who is almost never discussed...

I'm the keeper of the true archive of Captain Hate

Hi Al

Just so you know

People like Joe make me feel sick
that's why I will not come back here for a while

Cor

Hi, Cor. Your reaction is of the type that's always puzzled me on discussion boards: You have x number of participants and one or two (in someone's opinion) act like jerks and this so irks a person that they choose not to stay. I'm not sure what anyone expects when a largish group of people congregate in one place--that everyone's going to be everyone else's cup of tea? Now, if some large percentage of the population at a site exhibited this sort of jerkitude, obviously, one would take one's cyberself elsewhere. But to expect 100% compatability? I just don't understand that.

In other words, Cor, do stick around.

Oh Cornelis, how will I ever survive without you? After all we've been through. Where will you go? Who will be there? What's to become of everything we've made together? What shall I do?
Do you really expect me to live amongst these stamp collectors by myself? They are sooo boring I think I shall wretch.

Do you mind if I call you Corny?

Joe: " Do you really expect me to live amongst these stamp collectors by myself? They are sooo boring I think I shall wretch."

Time to find some new playmates?

Djll, you live on the west coast? I'm sorry, I never noticed.
I pulled down the trio with the Maneri's & Morris on hatology, I remembered liking it and liked even more this time around.
For my money the trios with Morris and Barre Phillips are the best.
The duos are too insular and the drummer they normally work with is ham-fisted, monotone and boring.
I'd love to hear Joe Maneri in trio with Barre and Oxley or Lovens, or even Paul Motion.
As Jon pointed out in another post, I believe "Cor" is Cor Fulher,
a fantastic Dutch musician who's music everyone on here would do well to check out, if you have not done so already.

I like the Corkestra a lot. I also like Joe's music, and I like stamps (I'll do it Richard Pryor style and mail the upside-down airplane). So fuck it.

"I like the Corkestra a lot. I also like Joe's music, and I like stamps (I'll do it Richard Pryor style and mail the upside-down airplane). So fuck it."

- Same here, I have have always liked Joe Morris' playing.
"2nd Outlet" on Nuscope is my favorite Cor Fuhler cd.

I've long dug "Three Men Walking". And a University of Kansas graduate just dropped a Brewster's Millions bomb on Bags and it wasn't me.

Hi Brian
I guess you are right

Hi Clifford
Off course.
I wasn't refering to music, just attitude I guess

anyway, not so important.
I'm of to the sun, travelling for a few months

Cor

whats really a bummer about joe morris and his smallness for me personally is the first creative music concert i ever saw was him and william parker in duo at bard college when i was a wee undergrad. totally freaked my mind out even if i found joe to be a little verbose in his picking. also earlier in the day mr morris gave a workshop which was really inspiring. at the time i played in a psych rock band with no songs, we would just play a single improvised piece of craziness for concerts and i had trouble convincing the other musicians to keep doing it and sometimes it was great and people would flip out an sometimes no one would be left when we were done. anyway after the workshop was much more confident in improvising as what i wanted to be doing. great day. of course looking back now i remember mr morris going off on an unprovoked i cant believe people want me to sound like derek bailey paranoid screed.
in summation joe you are getting so small you are going to disappear man.
also how about a little confidence in the art standing by itself outside of the author. what is this 1890

If I'm not mistaken, that Derek Bailey screed was a then-current oft-repeated example of Joe not caring what so-called critics think about him or his playing. Guy's been tough for a long time.

One person who was never concerned with me sounding like Derek Bailey was my very good friend Derek Bailey. Who, as I recall insisted till the very end that people stop comparing him to guitarists who played jazz. He considered that type of generalization to be a tipoff of ignorance.

As to my smallness "saltwatersnow", you're welcome. I'm glad my inspiration helped you to be more confident.

"also how about a little confidence in the art standing by itself outside of the author. what is this 1890"

Well, it's 2006 and due to the internet, it's not hard to see they'll be more of this. Joe Morris is hardly the first artist to go after a critic (didn't Derek Bailey take some swipes at critics?).

It would be nice to think that civility in such matters is possible, but probably not.

A couple of years ago a writer I know and admire, Richard Ford spit in the face of another writer Colson Whitehead, who had given him a negative review in the NYTBR. And Richard is a hell of a nice guy. This episode sure didn't make him look very nice, but such is life.

Joe Morris.

Many years ago a man insulted my father at a Quartet concert. I was about 16. You over heard, and saw how visibly upset I was. Your advise "If someone talked about my dad like that, I would have decked him."

Well, it's 2006 and due to the internet, it's not hard to see they'll be more of this. Joe Morris is hardly the first artist to go after a critic (didn't Derek Bailey take some swipes at critics?).

It would be nice to think that civility in such matters is possible, but probably not.

A couple of years ago a writer I know and admire, Richard Ford spit in the face of another writer Colson Whitehead, who had given him a negative review in the NYTBR. And Richard is a hell of a nice guy. This episode sure didn't make him look very nice, but such is life.

I think the Ford episode (or Crouch episodes or any of a number of anecdotes listed by Slonimsky or whatever old story you like) shows that you never needed the internet to respond when you get pissed off about a bad review. I got handwritten letters, reports of death threats, etc. You're right that one shouldn't expect "civility" (Trollope's code of the gentleman?) in most contexts. My only claim has been that these eruptions aren't at all a sign of toughness. On the contrary, they're just a sign of thin skin/sensitivity. If Ford was actually tough, he wouldn't have given a shit what the guy wrote. Obviously, it bothered him enough to try to pick a fight.

As Anna Freud explained at length, it's not intolerance of stupidity or ignorance of intent or any of that hifalutin-sounding stuff that produces these outbursts, it's just ego-defense.

Abe:

You can deck me when you see me if that makes you feel better. However, considering that your father and brother have been dishing it out about everyone they have ever heard or played with all over the world for 10 years, there would have to be, to be fair, a really long line of sons who would have to deck you afterwards, including my son.

You can hate me for telling the truth. I certainly expected that anyone named Maneri would feel that way when I wrote it. But shit, Joe and Mat hate people who help them! So why should anyone worry about it? If the truth is insulting, sorry. I really do not believe in all the love talk around your father. It might be real to him and you, but to me it isn't. When you stop falling for that it's easy to look with a cold eye at what is really there. And what is really there is quite different than the article would have you believe.

You can't read what I wrote because it's been deleted, but regardless of what you think or what anyone here thinks. I wrote it to correct things about music and the history of music in the article that were wrong, and false and therefore insulting to others. I regret how far it went too, but I am not responsible for any comments other than mine. I passed on numerous chances to comment about similar articles before that.

But don't blame for the horrible things written by the EB person. They should never have been included in that exchange. Mr. Civility, AL who runs this website should have deleted it immediately. I don't know her. I don't know how she knew the exchange was going on and I don't know how she got my address and e-mail either. I do know that she's a pain in the ass to everyone who's ever known your brother.

Maybe you should do something about that problem. It seems bigger than the one here.

OK Walto

I admit it. I'm thin-skinned, and weak. I am NOT TOUGH. OK?

We all know that I'm also an asshole, self-important, verbose, a jerk, small and completely lacking in civility.

You are right.

You're a bloody good guitarist, though.

Joe,

I would never hit you. I merely wanted to make a point. I was truly insulted when you impied that I don't know how love works. I mean, that's realy fucked up. however, I can't even hate you, you were simply arguing your point of view. I will continue to disagree with your point of view, and will continue to be personally insulted by your comments, however, I will continue to respect your music, if not your opinions about people who happen to have the same name as me. You must admit, however, you would have "decked" you. Please stop insulting Joe Maneri, he's 80 years old an deserves some respect.

Brian:

No, I suck. I know more about my guitar playing than you do and I am sure that I suck. I can prove it. I've made a career out of sucking. I make myself sick.

"You must admit, however, you would have "decked" you."

and then, voila!

"No, I suck. I know more about my guitar playing than you do and I am sure that I suck. I can prove it. I've made a career out of sucking. I make myself sick."

Damn, now we've seen everything here!

Abe:

I have no idea about what you know about love.

I have given Joe a ton of respect for a very long time. Am I supposed to participate in lies to show it?

In my comments I called him an original, innovative, master musician? Is that insulting? He deserves more than that? Really? More than the hyperbole written by Michael Anton Parker? No one has ever had anything more glowing written about them ever, anywhere. That isn't enough?

Anyway it's all moot now. AL deleted my comments. So Joe's story is intact. And I'm an asshole.

OK Walto

I admit it. I'm thin-skinned, and weak. I am NOT TOUGH. OK?

We all know that I'm also an asshole, self-important, verbose, a jerk, small and completely lacking in civility.

You are right.

You say I am right, which implies that I'VE called you all those names, but I haven't. I believe that the fact is that (when not mentioning that I enjoy a bunch of your recordings), I've said only that you were thin-skinned (i.e. NOT TOUGH), and sometimes factually mistaken (i.e, WRONG). This last post again seems to me to exhibit those same two qualities.

Walter:

You are right again.

You did not call me those names. People other than you did that.

You are right that you only said that I am thin-skinned and sometimes factually mistaken (i.e.WRONG). You are also right that my last post exhibits those same two qualities. As it would seem to you.

wow, I have to second Cor's opinion from a bit earlier. Maybe it's an Amsterdam thing.

brian, i think you may have built up a bit of a tolerance for this style of "discourse"...but to me, seems like every time i come here there's some bit of petty/childish/inane/malicious personal nastiness going on...maybe it's just bad timing on my part. point being: it might be more than one or two out of the x number of participants.

good luck!

Well, I’m glad we got that cleared up & that Walt & Joe are now on the same page.

Joe, I’m very curious what sorts of projects/releases you have lined up in the near future. Care to give us an early scoop on what to look forward to from your guitar & bass in the coming months?

Mark, I don't think so. Every few months or so there's a dust-up about one thing or another, usually a lot of hot air about no great matter. If this was a group of geeks who got together at a bar every night, I imagine the same thing would occur and with spilt liquids to boot. Do I wish it wouldn't happen? Of course. When it does happen, is much of it prodded along by unnecessary, ego-driven elbowing? Yep. But objectively, it's a pretty small portion of the discussion here. People have their own levels of tolerance, to be sure, but this place seems pretty civil to me as such sites go.

Derek:

With all the silly shit flying through all of this. The one part that really does bother me REALLY, is the suggestion (which was mild but suggested) that I had something against Derek Bailey. I didn't ever. He was one of the giants of guitar who, because he did so much, made it really hard for others to find new paths. I always admired his amazing skill on the guitar, his courage as an artist, and his originality. He knew I felt that way.

I feel bad that he died without ever getting an award or a dinner in his honor or a medal. Of course he'd never accept anything that dumb. He was one of the great artists of our times. He was tough.

Brian O: "If this was a group of geeks who got together at a bar every night, I imagine the same thing would occur and with spilt liquids to boot."

I dunno, Brian. I tend to agree with those who think people say certain things to people on-line that they would never say to their face. Are you breaking up fights at all those NY shows?

Hey, you haven't shown up yet!

Not normally, no, but a pre-condition of my example was "every night", much the way people come around here every day, multiple times. Eventually, some folks' patience wears thin.

"Hey, you haven't shown up yet!"

Ha! Good one.

Joe, I feel the same about Derek- a great artist.

But back to my question, what have you been up to musically of late?

"Do you mind if I call you Corny?"
Hi Joe
You sir however, can call me Correct any time :-)

Cor

Dear Correct:

Oh good. Considering that Dutch musicians are known for their great sense of humor, (Han, Mengleberg Breuker (sp) etc) I was worried you might actually be from another country. :)

WTF, the sequel. Why is this still ongoing? Granted there are good points being made about history and music and revisionism.. but the personal shit does not belong in a venue like this.

If I want to see some dirty laundry, I'll read US or People. If I want to read some in depth music discussion... ?????

I thought the point of Al regulating on this beef-fest was to quell the tide, not reopen the flood gates.

Keep it to the white-label diss records.

It's good that it's contained here, but I don't think it's even possible to redirect it into a calm discourse at this point! Maybe we'll have to start another thread for "calm discourse on ___" for the pantyweights like myself...

Adam wrote:"I dunno, Brian. I tend to agree with those who think people say certain things to people on-line that they would never say to their face. Are you breaking up fights at all those NY shows?"

Shit Adam, you shoulda been at the 'quake, Brian got pissed off at something one of the guys was playing and dived over the drum kit knocking them over, grabbed the mic and starting singing Aqualung. Alastair grabbed Korber's guitar, kicked into the riff on his way to turning it into a progfest. Utter mayhem broke loose and Jon Abbey was only able to restore order by announcing that they were selling out of print Taku Sugimoto CD's in the basement which had everybody scrambling downstairs with fists full of cash. Fuck the wimpy crowd at Wolf Eyes shows, they got nothing on the eai guys.......

Of course if you've seen what takes place online at JC it should be no surprise this sort of stuff goes on at shows.....

Thanks for the funny low-down, Chris, which I'm believing actually happened and just as you described it. On-line Brian always appears to be the model of good-humored civility, but I always suspected he's truly a barbarian with a passion for Jethro Tull once you get a little grog in him.

There are even rumors that he goes on-line under a pseudonym. Calls himself Uli and has a lot of weird exchanges with ..... himself!

Sitting on a park bench,
Watching little girls with bad intent

This post serves to officially announce that I am resigning from Bagatellen and discontinuing any further association with the site. There are three basic reasons for this decision:

1. Al has deleted the entire thread of comments in my "John Lockwood and the Holy Trinity" piece against my wishes. I feel it's a violation of the spirit of the discourse format and an affront to the various people who contributed substantial and valuable content to this text object. These people are: me, Matt Milton, Brian Marley, Joe Morris, Steve Lantner, Walter Horn, Jesse Goin, Rob (of Chicago), Abe Maneri. A small stretch in the middle of the thread contained uncomfortable personal content relating to Mat Maneri's private affairs, but it was decided by both me and Al (independently) at the time (August, 2005) that this content would remain. In my view, this was a judicious and nuanced acceptance of the medium of the internet in which the text was dynamically created. There are boundaries of course, and after suckerpunching us with a few reasonable-to-iffy posts, a certain EB made a few posts that I immediately deleted due to completely inappropriate content. Because I was diligently monitoring the situation at the time, I'm happy to report the offending posts were surely not cached anywhere or seen by anyone else save a random handful of Bags readers at most, and they were gone before any dependent posts could appear. It was a turbulent but ultimately productive experience that was handled as gracefully as possible. Warts and all, the thread was part of the furniture for over four months when Al rashly, frantically, and irrationally deleted it in its entirety on Wednesday, January 11th, 2006 following a very high-quality post by Abe Maneri and a benign remark or two by others. Ultimately, the heart of the thread was a series of challenges to my piece by Joe Morris and some brief, incomplete responses from me in which I welcomed some of his expert, fascinating musicological insights and defended my writing and conflicting musicological views against the hyperbolic component of his comments, which turned out to be a transparent reflection of a seriously soured personal relationship between Morris and the Maneris. Regardless of whether it's me or Morris who's correct about a given specific issue, both of us were entitled by the discourse context to contribute our texts and it was an unusually productive extension to the initial text that Bagatellen should proudly host in its archive.

2. Al did not consult me at all before taking this drastic course of action. The matter of whether to retain the comments is subtle. There are reasonable arguments that can be made either way. After sitting for four months there was nothing remotely urgent about the matter. A careful and thoughtful approach was called for, but Al's actions were heavy-handed and overhasty. As the author of the lead text and even a primary topic of the thread in this case, I have much more at stake than anyone else in its handling, more than Al or Bagatellen as a whole. The discourse format of this site places primary editorial responsibility on the lead author as the text object dynamically unfolds. That's why I deleted several comments by EB midstream. As far as I'm concerned, it is unthinkable to exclude me from a subtle editorial decision about the text object. Obviously the site works as a team and any clear-cut case (duplicate posts, spam, offensive material, etc) could be handled by whoever gets to it first, but this was a decision that I should've been part of. I consider this an ethical violation.

3. Al's disrespectful, dismissive, and condescending behavior towards me in our private email exchange on Wednesday. I don't wish to contribute to the enterprise of a person I no longer feel personally comfortable dealing with.

I have a complete intact archive of the webpage prior to its modification by Al, and I'll happily email this to anyone who requests it. My email address is below as always. I encourage Al and other members of the Bagatellen community to engage the possibility of restoring the comments. My wishes are clear and my resignation from the site is definite and permanent regardless of whether Al heeds mine or others' wishes.

Well, it's been a wonderful 9 months sharing this space with some wonderful people and I'm very sad to withdraw from this community. Above all, my deepest gratitude is to Derek, the pillar of this site, for his great writing, convivial stewardship, warm support, and inspiring spirit. As for my future publishing, I haven't made any plans. I suppose I'll just keep up with the other "old-fashioned" music writing I've been doing for years and cut back a bit on the idealistic writing I've been self-commissioning for Bags. I won't quit this sort of thing entirely, though, and I suppose I'll eventually just throw up an el cheap blog somewhere so I have a place to share some special texts with a small group of folks who share a specialized interest in the topics. I do feel some obligations to follow through with a handful of pieces that are in varying stages of completion. One URL is as good as another. Click.

Don't let the door...etc., etc.

Wouldn't it have been better if you simply stated that you had a difference of opinion with Al and decided to pull out? Did we really need a full play-by-play?

Asking Michael to write ten words rather than 1000 is like asking him to breathe through his ears.

I'll miss MAP's texts, even though they were long ... I liked his way of writing and I think it is a good thing he explained precisely why he decided to leave . To bad this crap went that far.

I posted no personal attacks on the Maneri's. I questioned whether MAP's fanatic love for them had caused him to credit them with accomplishments that were actually made by others and to revise events to improve their status.
Funny how that question caused such an earthquake.

"Asking Michael to write ten words rather than 1000 is like asking him to breathe through his ears."

or like asking Phil to listen to music and understand anything about it.

and here comes two days of even more cheap shots.....

my last thoughts on this issue...

At this point, the only person who seems to be affected by the deletion of the comments is MAP. Michael has retained all of the drama in his own files, so contact him or consult his pending blog if you're so itching. He'll do his best to "maintain the public record", as he might put it. I have no problem with that. It's just not going to be hosted here.

Michael, you have had all the freedom in the world at this site. I think I speak for everyone in saying that your contributions here have breathed life into bagatellen on many levels. Thanks for all of your hard work and for sharing a perspective that I find wildly unique. Good luck in your endeavors and don't let this episode sour your spirit.

Well, I'm always sorry when anyone censors anything anywhere. At the very least the article could of stayed with the most offensive comments deleted in concert with the author.

Seems there something in the air these January with some of the fracas at JC and now this.

However one of the things that drives sites like these is the soap opera like interaction that develops between the people who post. That's actually one of the things that makes it so interesting and attractive for people. In other words, Bill, yes we needed to hear the whole story up front. Otherwise there would be 100 posts speculating on what happened.

For me, I'm sorry to see anyone go who contributes something other the short sharp shocks that for many people is the whole of their contribution to sites like these.

It's too bad that a person like Mike Parker, who is overflowing with enthusiasm for the music, is made to feel, by so many hypercynical people, that there's something wrong with him. No wonder so few people listen to this shit!

I admire Michael's enthusiasm, but he needs to work on honing his writing, so that he expresses his ideas clearly without resorting to hyperbole or unnecessary verbiage.

"Asking Michael to write ten words rather than 1000 is like asking him to breathe through his ears."

And asking him to write ten words that actually express a well-formed idea would be a miracle. I've never in all my days of reading about music seen someone with so little to say take so much time saying it. This site is better off without Mr. Parker's pompous verbal peregrinations. Regardless of what one might think about Al deleting the Lindberg piece, someone should have pulled the plug on--or severly restricted--this man's inane ramblings long ago.

Meant Lockwood, not Lindberg above

A piece on John lindberg is not a bad idea. He an amazing and still under-rated bass player.

I'm always sorry when people are made to feel like they have to leave. I have felt like doing that myself on occasion around here, too, and sometimes on other boards - it just gets aggravating to read through and to participate in situations where one feels obviously unwanted, no matter their merits.

Sometimes it was hard to sift through Mike's pieces, but he was doing a hell of a lot more than standing around and commenting, that is for sure.

And yeah, John Lindberg is a great bassist. Haven't read anything too recent on him, however.

if you can't stand the heat,,,

from one who took more than a little

only 9 months?

I have posted on the net for almost 10 years and can relate to the charges against MAP, but we need to grow some balls,,,,

if you have such strong opinions, please learn how to withstand the criticism.

another aside for MAP

I was writing about Joe Maneri's music on-line starting in the late 90's - also from a fan's perspective - and I took as much heat as one can imagine.

MUCH more than the little stuff here.

sensitivity cannot be expected when one writes something on the order of what you wrote

anyone from the ol' site remember the "Coming Down the Mountain" thread?

Ain't that a shame to take such cheap shots at someone who just left ??? At least he was regularly posting texts and people were reacting to it !

Isn't a part of the title of this thread Civility ?
Are you feeling like you are civilized here ?

I'll miss MAP a lot. A unique perspective, infectious (if manic) enthusiasm, and a real dedication to going to shows: all attributes few share.

not a cheap shot at all - for the very short time I have been reading the comments on this board (but having known a number of the participants pretty well for a long period of time) I have nejoyed MAP's comments - however verbose they may have been.

but I am somewhat known for verbosity and enthusiam for what I love - Mr. Horn actually might have given me my nickname a long while back - or at least he still refers to me as that - infamously or famously as The Preacher - so I know from where I speak,,,,

it is my experience that if one is going to post enthusiatic commentary about music/musicians then one better get some thick skin.

peace and blessings

I don't have any problems with MAP. Got a problem though with Al's name being dragged through the mud on the board. Al puts a lot of work into this show and he's the editor. Deal with it.

Agreed, but the red pen should have been ruled fair and square through the offensive shit on that thread as soon as it hit the fan. And that's the Editor's job. I too regret the fact that the other posts on that thread, including Joe Morris's, are now history, but that's Al's decision and I respect it.

There's a simple remedy for not liking the stuff you read. Are you people so obtuse as to need reminding of what that might be?

Just. Don't. Read. It.

This is a public forum, and any nutcase or asshole can post here. Can y'all deal with that?

Instead of Mike Parker's unmediated yet entertaining enthusiasm, now we get self-serving platitudes on the level of "if you can't stand the heat" or "get a thicker skin," etc. Which is just another way of saying, "You should be more like me."

MAP isn't perfect, and his posts were a pain in the ass. But this forum will be poorer for his departure.

MAP didn't leave because he couldn't handle criticism; he left because he couldn't support censorship of himself and others in dialogue.

Feel free to go back to insulting him and his writing, clearly a much more worthwhile activity than attempting to sift/ think through his musicological observations.

guys, Mike didn't leave in a huff because of due or undue criticism. He has a lot more balls than that. Mike left of his own accord because of an editorial decision that was made, which he deemed an "ethical violation".

In a month Mike's departure will be understood as a result of "ethnic cleansing", the way we're going here.

Civility, yo. Leave him alone.

Mr. Morris ( JOE MAN )

I saw your comments and I am shocked!
You wrote that my opinion " should be deleted completely and for ever".
Oh, you want to be a censor too!
You can wite ALL what you want, but in your opinion I CAN wite NOTHING!
Why?
You should know that I will never disappear from Mat's life , because we have a child.

Do you have any children? If you are a parent I am sure you understand me and my situation.

Mr. Moris, I really do not understand you at all.
In private letters what you wrote me, you are vey friendly and kindly and you wrote that you are vey happy that I took Mat to court and you hope that he will go to prison!
You should know that Matthew Maneri will not go to prison. I will NEVER do it. He is a father of our daughter!!!! Are you very disappoited?

In your private letters you give me moral support and you wish me all the best, but now you insult me in public. Why?

You wrote me in private e-mail " Maneris are awfull people" and now you write about me " she is a pain in the ass"!!!!

LEAVE US ALONE AT LAST!!!!!

And you are surprise that I got your address!!!
You are in telephone book! Do not you know about it? You wrote ALONE contact to you in your web-side too! Did you forget? But you are surprised!

Mr.Morris, you write all the time about Maneris (always bad), you follow Mat all the time ( and you have no children with him as I know!!), you are in epicentre of Maneri's life....because you WANT TO BE THERE and after you are surprise that people (also I) contact you about Maneris.

I have a good advice for you - KEEP DISTANCE from Maneris and nobody will disturb you!!!

Leave Mat alone, stop follow Mat and stop write about him and you will not have "pain is the ass".

But you can be sure, if one day I meet you, you will get kick in your ass, because you really deserve it!!!

Edyta B.

That reminds me, I forgot to have Mat's child.

Bummer.

I need kick in my ass.

Good evening. This is your Captain. We are about to attempt a crash landing. Please extinuish all cigarettes. Place your tray tables in their upright, locked position. Your Captain says: Put your head on your knees. Your Captain says: Put your head on your hands. Captain says: Put your hands on your head. Put your hands on your hips. Heh heh. This is your Captain-and we are going down. We are all going down, together.

O Superman...O judge...O mom & dad....

JOE MORRIS has apologized me in his private letter, what he sent me few days ago.
It is a pity that Mr. Morris did not do it in public.
I am still waiting...I understand it must be difficult to him.
In my opinion Mr. Morris would have less problems if he stop following and writting about Matthew all the time.
Mr. Morris, I know that 4 or 5 years ago Mat told few cold words about your music, but can it be a reason that you will hate him now to the end of your life???
Leave him alone, live your life and keep distance from Maneris family, from me too.
I am mother of Mat's child, so this fact makes that I belong to his family, unfortunatly....
But this is another story, very sad story and I do not want to speak about it any more.
It makes no sense.
And it is my advice to you.
Forget about Mat, Joe...you will be more happy.

Edyta B.

Your comments are inappropriate in this forum. Please stop posting here. Thanks.

That ought to put a stop to it.

Yeah, right.

I was insulted by Joe Morris, so my comments are ABSOLUTLY nessesry!!!! Do not you understand it??
Really?
Do you want to be a censor too???

I thought that I am free person and I can protect my name and my reputation but I see that your biggest problem is censorship.
You speak all the time about -who can write here, who can not , what must be deleted, what public can read and what not....
Are you crazy???
My comments are MY COMMENTS and this is my human right!!!!
If somebody writes about ME and write MY NAME I have ALL RIGHTS to UNSWER AND PROTECT my good reputation!!!! Do not you think????
Or it is to difficult to understand to you???
SO, do not write about me and I will never wite you!!!
Belive me, it is not a pleasue to conversate with you...
AND REMEMBER, my boy, that I will posting here so long time , so I wish and you will not stop me? Who are you?
I do not know you and I do not care who you are and what are you thinking about me.
If you do not like my comments, you do not need to come back to this place and you do not need to read my comments!!!!
Is it clear, boy?

And by the way, I thought that all comments from article "John Lockwood and the holy Trinity" are deleted, but they are not.
I can still read it in Internet. That is right.

mother of Mat's daughter
Edyta B.

Edyta, I'm one of the so-called "administrators" of this site, which means I also contribute to the financial and content upkeep here. With that in mind I’m hoping you’ll read what I have to say & abide by it.

You're certainly entitled to your "comments" and your opinions; I'd just ask you to realize that thus far they have been of a very personal, combative and narrowly-focused nature. You obviously have an agenda and using our site as your bully pulpit is not okay. Feel free to post about music, to post about film, hell to post your favorite recipe for guacamole dip (I'm on the hunt for a new one), but this whole diatribe against Joe Morris in these pages has got to stop. Please, if you feel the need to "defend" yourself do so through personal correspondence & not in this particular public forum. Thanks in advance for understanding my perspective & respecting it.

Sincerely,
Derek Taylor

If you are administrator of this page, do your job correctly and take care that NOBODY insult me in public and that NOBODY use my name and that NOBODY write about me, because in another case I will have to answer and post my comments also in public, exectly HERE!!!

I am not against Mr. Morris and I am not against anybody, but ORDNUNG MUSS SEIN!!!( as German people say).
Leave me alone and I will leave you alone!!!
This one is for SURE!!!!

Regards
EDYTA B.

"Leave me alone and I will leave you alone!!"

Oh crikey, I stepped right in it. Actually that sounds like a fair pact- where do I sign to ensure that this nonsense ceases?

I am sorry that I called Edyta B a "pain in the ass" and that I suggested her comments be deleted because they were not appropriate.
I hope this public apology clears her name and reputation.

TO:Mr. Morris,
Thank you for your apology.

To:Mr. Taylor
You understand nothing.

Edyta B.

Thanks, Joe.

Damn! I forgot to have Mat's child, too!
Sheesh.

Sheez, and I've had to work at not having Mat Maneri's child. It's called birth control. I'm sure they have it in Poland but it's not a favorite tool of women looking to trap a man by getting pregnant.
There's a morality tale here that I hope all you musicians on the road take to heart because Mat is the second person I know who this has happened to. Be careful and carry your own condoms; because that post-gig, one-night stand can turn into a lifetime of hell. Now about that music...