I teach SAT prep (verbal & math), but have also been a web producer, a house painter, a day laborer, a doorman, a mailboy, a tutor, and an office temp. My job now is okay because most of the year it's just 4 hours a day so I can play a lot.

My friend Choi Joonyong just got a job at a bank, and his partner-in-noise, Hong Chulki is a graduate student in Political Theory.

My Poortland friends are mostly barely-employed.

Funny, Tomas Korber was interested in this subject not too long ago. For myself, I work as an English teacher with two small language schools (French law obliges companies to reinvest 1% of annual turnover in training programmes, and along with IT English is usually in demand) and freelance translator. Corporate yawn stuff for the most part, but the occasional interesting job. I had the pleasure of translating Philippe Manoeuvre's liners for the Best Of Rita Mitsouko (Virgin) a while back, and also translate all the liners for the Cobalt label (African music).
Over to you Tomas! And tell us about the other cats we discussed a while ago..

I've been pretty interested in this subject, and welcome any sort of public chat about it. For a radio show in London I recorded a discussion amongst TwoThousandAnd musicians. Among other things we talked about the economics of being a musician, mostly the differences between a musician with a day job and a musician who plays music of some form full-time. Seymour Wright provided an interesting angle I hadn't considered. Archived material is under Listen section at www.twothousandand.com.

I work as a full-time audiovisual technician. I have access to mics, speakers, occasional recording space, editing software, cameras, etc. to which I am greatly dependent on. My office is the TwoThousandAnd mastering suite! In my previous job in television, I made TONS of colour prints for early releases. I have pretty much always been in a job that I could use to help my creative output. I've got musician friends who teach or do more office-type things, and I'm glad that at least I've got a 40-hour week that gives me the chance to edit and record on the side, borrow equipment when I need it.

My work takes up a good chunk of my time, but it does mean I'm not too financially stretched. I just don't have as much time as I'd like. I'd see the next step up as being freelance, so at least I can go away on tour without worrying about using up allocated holiday.

My girlfriend is a freelance costume designer. Though not a massive trade, it's a more established profession than 'experimental musician'! We envy each other for different reasons. I envy her for actually getting paid for her creative work, having more time for it as a reault because it's her job. She envies me at times when she's either out of work, or she's working on a really crap show while I am free to do whatever I like because I'm not depending on it for my living.

I don't know how much there is to say on the subject before I get gripey, though. Of course I think about it when I'm wishing I wasn't at work. Things are the way they are, I guess. I'd still like to read a Wire article that doesn't make it seem like all Musician X had to do was move to New York and hook up with Name Y and Name Z before he found himself gigging regularly and now he's about to release a string of albums and he's hot shit. I'd like them to mention that their cover star works as a janitor when he's not on tour. Or perhaps ask the person 'So how much money have you spnged off your parents?' It would be so fresh!

Anyway, Seymour's words made me feel better last year.

Michael

Hello (and hello to Michael especially- thanx for everything in London- hope you like the latest record)

As for L'Innomable label it is a totally non-profit affair where everything gained by distribution goes into future releases. Me and Jani finance the label by ourselves. I work mainly on Radio Student where i have my own radio show and i do also reviews, interviews, etc ... Payment is less then shitty (for eyžxample if i present three records on my show i am 80 % in minus as for expenses paid for records). I do publish some reviews and articles for couple of slovene music mags and i do a little work on TV. Before i was aTV show presenter (2 hours of musical programm with mixture of main and non manistream music- quite interesting in fact). With the payment i could support myself but with new year this show was cannceled which of course means troubles in my life which can effect also the work of the label. At thelabel we were fortunate enough to cut our expensive to minimum since Jani, the other half of the label has printing company where we print cds. But it's damn hard not to mention how hard is for every creative musician in Slovenia to mantain their work without making bad compromises ...

all best LukaZ

While I am not a musician, I have my own story to relate...

After college, I retained my part-time job handling mail for the library system at a University here in Dallas. Worked 8 to noon, M - F. Afternoons and some evenings were spent writing. In this way, I finished drafts of two novels and one screen adaptation of another writer's work. In retrospect, a good gig: physical activity, walking around campus, which gave me time to mull over many ideas. The absence of anything really interesting going on at work -- the absence of any "material" as writers often describe it -- was therefore quite freeing.

At the same time, I was rather lackadaisically applying to Creative Writing MFA Programs. Was accepted into 2, one a residency program, one non-residency, but elected not to attend either for various personal and political reasons. I knew I would keep writing, regardless of whatever schmoozing I might be able to do as a graduate student.

Granted, being a writer is not as taxing economically as being a musician. My equipment -- paper, pens -- costs much less, I don't need to book studio time, and I don't really need collaborators. I've never self-published, though I've thought about the limited run chapbook. The overhead is still well withing my means.

What I need most, then, is time, and lots of it. I work very, very slowly.

I have since entered a profession; ended up getting a Masters degree after all, but in library and information science. Weekdays are consumed pretty quickly now, and I only really write in the evening, on the weekends, and on certain days off. Freelance work for the local newspaper helps, but it is more worthwhile as discipline and as a resume builder than it is something that generates significant renumeration.

I guess the imporant thing to remember on those days when it feels like everything conspires against the real work is that, if it weren't difficult, it wouldn't be worth doing at all.

Joe wrote:
"I’m curious about what these folks do when proletarian ventures necessarily take them away from their art."

Most of the musicians I know in the U.S. have some kind of day job, but try to find one that's flexible (ie low paying). I work for a book store warehouse which is extremely flexible, so I can generally tour as much as I need to. I know a few people who do quite well with freelance web design which fits into their schedules and can pay pretty well. Other people work in record stores, do odd jobs, or get "real" jobs, earn a comfortable wage, tour much less and focus on recording. This latter situation is something I'm currently leaning towards, but the job market in general kind of sucks right now.

Joe:
"By what means is the average Aktionist able to pay the rent? How does the dyed-in-wool Gurglestock guy procure money for groceries? Where does Dave Phillips find/earn the funds to purchase his orally-inserted contact mics?"

Well, Rudolf Eb.er teaches martial arts. I don't know what Dave Phillips does, but it can be a different situation in Europe. They have many more squats (which may work well for some) and they also have (for now) some funding which means some musicians can live on the Festival circuit, get grants of some kind. For people in Sweden and Austria, there are various kinds of funds for musicians to live off of. In France, there is (still? It's dying off, I know.) a system for musicians to play x number of gigs per year at "legitimate"/approved venues and receive a salary. But all this is changing.

"And relatedly, how do these “working stiff” experiences affect/constrict/inspire/expire their musical pursuits?"

When I did office work (which may happen again), I developed a self-preserving Dadaistic sense of the absurd banality around me which inspired me in various ways. For some, they use this constriction to focus the way they work - ie taking time to work on a project of some kind that they can develop without any external pressure. Being selective can be a benefit. Jandek's supposed stock broker job doesn't hold him back from a continuous output. And financial stability from anything outside of music is definitely useful for not feeling forced into doing something you're not into 100% for financial reasons.

At this point, I'd love to get a paying job and eventually start putting out records... gratuitous gatefold single LPs!

Like anything, limitations can be a good thing, but it's a balancing act either way for anyone. I interviewed at an insurance company once and the interviewer said, "No one really wants to work in insurance." Probably true.

This is a very interesting discussion and probably (at least in my humble opinion) a central dilemma for experimental artists, or at least for those with little to no hope of making a living of their artistic output. In my past part-time fooling-around with freelance writing, I always made it a point to ask the musicians I interviewed what they did for a day job and I found many to be surprisingly cagey about what they actually did for money, but then I suppose there's a certain "loss of aura" when people find out that mysterious engimatic muso X is actually a part-time painter or something. Or at least there's where I always assumed the reticence came from...

Anyways, as for me I have a full-time desk job as an IT person working at a non-profit in Manhattan. It's the most money I've ever earned, though I suppose it's on the very-low-end of Manhattan salaries since I'm in the non-profit world. Pros: non-profit life is ridiculously laid back ( 9 to 5 on the dot, with 9 to 3 on Fridays) and I get 23 vacation days, which by European standards is probably pretty standard but leaves me with plenty of time for touring, picking up small residencies, etc. And I have enough money to contemplate doing things I've always wanted to do, like start and absurd micro-label of 7" releases. Oh, and I can actually help pay the RAYR credit card bills too. Cons: working in an office with neon lighting and all the usual office politic BS means that more often I find it hard to switch modes in the evening and get out of the office mindset to focus on music. And neon lighting and computer screens get very tiring very quickly.

Lately I've been thinking that the real secret killer isn't the job but the rent -- living in Brooklyn, you end up paying absurd rents by default, and that's where I think the real frustration comes in -- dealing with crappy living conditions in tiny apartments isn't conducive to artistic enterprise. I've been daydreaming recently about moving to someplace close upstate, and I would do it in a second if I didn't have to deal with a $300 monthly Metro-North fee. Unless... anyone have any leads on some sweet Greenpoint loft space going for dirt cheap?

greg wrote:

"and they also have (for now) some funding which means some musicians can live on the Festival circuit, get grants of some kind."

i know very few who can actually live on that. for most people it helps to do a single project, like maybe financing the production of a CD or getting some money to get on tour... but don't be mistaken: it's not like the government would say: "ah, ok so here we have a poor but talented artist - let's give him a monthly paycheck!"... i'm very thankful for getting any help at all though. and i'm rather lucky, especially compared to some american friends, that's true.

by the way: so called anarchists don't reject funding either, ain't that funny?

michael wrote:

"I'd still like to read a Wire article that doesn't make it seem like all Musician X had to do was move to New York and hook up with Name Y and Name Z before he found himself gigging regularly and now he's about to release a string of albums and he's hot shit. I'd like them to mention that their cover star works as a janitor when he's not on tour. Or perhaps ask the person 'So how much money have you spnged off your parents?' It would be so fresh!"

nick wrote:
"I always made it a point to ask the musicians I interviewed what they did for a day job and I found many to be surprisingly cagey about what they actually did for money, but then I suppose there's a certain "loss of aura" when people find out that mysterious engimatic muso X is actually a part-time painter or something. Or at least there's where I always assumed the reticence came from.."

i don't agree with either of you. see it this way: if someone choses to publish his/her music, that doesn't mean he's also publishing his way of paying the rent. as dan said, i'm interested myself in this kind of things as well, for different reasons. but think about it: why are you interviewing guy xy? you're interviewing him because of his music, not because he's a clerk or whatever. so if he doesn't wish to talk about anything else than his music, that should be respected. or is the fact that he's dayjobbing as a clerk making him less of a hero to you?

tomas wrote:

"i don't agree with either of you. see it this way: if someone choses to publish his/her music, that doesn't mean he's also publishing his way of paying the rent. as dan said, i'm interested myself in this kind of things as well, for different reasons. but think about it: why are you interviewing guy xy? you're interviewing him because of his music, not because he's a clerk or whatever. so if he doesn't wish to talk about anything else than his music, that should be respected. or is the fact that he's dayjobbing as a clerk making him less of a hero to you?"

No, that's not what I mean, and I suppose I should clarify a bit. I asked the people I was interviewing out of personal interst, since I have dealt with many of the same issues myself as someone making experimental work and trying to also pay rent. And I haven't used any of this information in the final article simply because I agree, people want to read about the music and not how they spend their 9 to 5.

Personally, whether Rudolf Eber washes dishes or teaches karate doesn't affect my opinion on him at all, I just find it interesting from a personal perspective, to attempt to learn from others who *have* successfully reconciled the problem of making money vs making art. My point was rather that I think some musicians are reticent to tell because they do in fact think that, as you said "fact that he/she is dayjobbing as a clerk will make him/her less of a hero." And I think that's something of a strange mindset.

nick,
"Personally, whether Rudolf Eber washes dishes or teaches karate doesn't affect my opinion on him at all, I just find it interesting from a personal perspective, to attempt to learn from others who *have* successfully reconciled the problem of making money vs making art."

100% agreed. that's exactly the reason why i have been asking pretty much everyone making 'eperimental" music lately how they earn there money, to, as you put it very well, "attempt to learn from others who *have* successfully reconciled the problem of making money vs making art."

"My point was rather that I think some musicians are reticent to tell because they do in fact think that, as you said "fact that he/she is dayjobbing as a clerk will make him/her less of a hero." And I think that's something of a strange mindset."

a strange mindset, indeed. but i don't think there are so many who have this mindset, at least i haven't come accross many. but yeah, maybe it's not so much the fear of being less of a "hero", but rather of being identified with something which you yourself don't identify with at all. maybe someone washes dished and thinks, "fuck i hate this job... when i'm making music, that's who i REALLY am" and then i kind of understand if he doen't want to talk about washing dished when in fact it's an interview about his music...

but anyway: all i wanted to say is that, yes, it is a very interesting topic, but we shouldn't discredit artists just for the fact that they don't want everyone to know about their 9 to 5.

Thanks for the responses thus far.

I don’t think either Nick or Michael is advocating disrespect of a musician’s privacy. When I talk to/interview musicians, I’m not just interested in their music, but also in the extra-musical things that make them tick (ie. where do they find their inspiration? how did they decide to do what they do? Etc.) Part of this usually entails asking about the ‘sociological’/ontological aspects of their art. If they decide that sort of stuff is off-limits, cool. But it’s definitely something I’m curious about. A musician’s circumstances can definitely color my perceptions of what they’re doing and why? Authenticity is a subjective quality, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a factor.

My situation as a non-musician is pretty similar to Joe’s and Nick’s: 40 hr/wk day job at a social services agency (half days on Fridays) that leaves the weekend & nights free for writing/listening/relaxing/life. There’s occasional down-time on the job too, but the surroundings aren’t that conducive to writing/thinking creatively (lots of extraneous conversational noise, the aforementioned fluorescents, etc). On the upswing listening to music at low decibel levels is possible, as is unchecked net-surfing.

yes, i understand now. i probably got michaels wire-reference wrong. just want to make sure we don't start with this "they treat him like a star but really he's a lousy dish-washer" attitude. i've been a bit picky with this kind of stuff lately.

so: no problem. interesting topic. thanks for starting it, derek and thanks nick, michael, dan, luka and all the others for discussing.

Tomas:
"i know very few who can actually live on that."

I just meant that some people get by playing various festivals throughout the year, an occasional grant, tour money or whatnot, but sure, it's still piecemeal and relatively rare.

Tomas:
"but don't be mistaken: it's not like the government would say: "ah, ok so here we have a poor but talented artist - let's give him a monthly paycheck!"..."

I thought some people had managed something like this in France and Sweden, but you have to sign up, play 150 gigs a year at the approved places and write out a lot of paperwork for not too much, but a salary of some kind. But, I could be wrong and I know it's getting more and more difficult.

tomas:
"by the way: so called anarchists don't reject funding either, ain't that funny?"

Maybe they think of it as stealing! :-)

greg,

yes i think you're right about france. or at least it used to be like that. dan or noël could tell us more, i'm sure. i have no idea about sweden, but i'm sure you're right. in switzerland the situation is quite good, compared to the states for example (where there is no funding at all, right?). austria is at least as good, maybe better. but it's all going down, slowly.

anarchists: well, it's like you said "vomit sounds are fukkkin siiiiickkk!!" but only that it is even siiiickkker if you know he got 500 bucks for doing it :-)

[light bulb] just figured out that Elk is Greg Kelley (must be a lingering Maker’s fog).

Greg, I’m enjoying Cold Bleak Heat’s new Family Vineyard disc, have you guys done any shows/touring?

A fair number of the Los Angeles new music/improv/whatever people work as school music teachers or pay the bills through orchestra or studio work. UCLA & Cal Arts also support a fair number of folks as adjunct or permanent faculty, research assistants, studio technicians, etc.
Me, I'm a librarian at a public library.

The question of studio work is interesting though. It's fun to spot like, Kenny Burrell on the cast album of "Bye Bye Birdie" or some of the legendary Derek Bailey sideman dates (Doris Day? Diana Dors?), but does knowing that Brad Dutz played in the pit for the Ten Commandments musical starring Val Kilmer affect my appreciation of his original work? If Hal Blaine and Carol Kaye put out a free improv record, would I think it was other than a prank?

I am in my 31st year of teaching in Texas public schools but could probably now be making money straight off my music, since interest is up and the internet is almost-free compared to the horrendous cost of phoning, which I did until the advent of virtual communications. I knew early on that I was in a marginalized music, but have found that it is not as marginalized as I thought for years.

I also translate texts of different ilks into various languages, produce sessions for jazz release, write poetry and prose, exhibit and sell my visual art (mostly paper-based now), did a gig for 21 years programming world musics/jazz/whathaveyou at KERA-FM in Dallas, am currently marketing a book of heart images, selling my early obscure music online, traveling to various places for gigs, recordings, record stor openings, record release parties, openings of new performance venues, having my high school students stage a walkout when my superiors threatened me with termination/transfer, this week I've been selecting textbooks (with 80 other educators) that will be adopted for our Dallas school children for the next decade...so many things to do that music, though it's really going well, is almost a hobby, but A Hobby Supreme (sorry).

Oooh noooooo, I'm not getting drawn into the debate about the French Intermittent de Spectacle status again --! I'd prefer someone who actually is an Intermittent (not the case with me) to describe & defend the status. Could somebody persuade Jerome Noetinger to chip in?

yes, i understand now. i probably got michaels wire-reference wrong. just want to make sure we don't start with this "they treat him like a star but really he's a lousy dish-washer" attitude. i've been a bit picky with this kind of stuff lately.

No, it's not that I want to stand in front of a crowd of Wire Readers, throwing over newstands screaming 'The Chicago Scene is made from PEOPLE! PEEEOPLE!' :)

I mentioned the Wire because it is probably the biggest journalistic outlet for the kind of music associated with folks round here and therefore a big example of how pockets of experimental/independent music are resembling major music industry practice in terms of promotion and product presentation. This would of course apply to other publishing scenarios. When you've landed your one-page article, I can see how you (and your record label) would be more interested in pushing the recent full-length release than talking about how many books you've shelved today. It's also tricky when likely many people don't know you and you gotta spend the first half of the article explaining what you do. Combine all that and you can end up with many articles that, to me, get tiresome and difficult to tell apart. It's just an endless stream of "Dude came up from and moved to and pushes the boundaries of after releasing a few obscure records on etc . . ." I'd like to know there was a bit of struggle, but so often there ain't time to talk about it! I often get more interest in a musician not from reading a synopsis of their career achievements but hearing about them as a person. But if they don't wanna talk about themselves, fair enough.

This applies on a more conceptual level maybe but in the context of products and promotion, beginning to see artists as a string of releases and typically wonderful adjectives listed in magazines without addressing them as people with hopes, aspirations, fears, struggles, etc. could be a contributing factor to passive consumption of music, musicians as background product. Whoa! I'm just sayin, especially in a big city like London where jade is the new black, it can be easy to read someone's interview in a mag and think "great, they've made it". Then when they come to town, you may not go because you were tired and frankly you're kinda sick of seeing their name everywhere with that stupid professional photo of them looking cool. Maybe if those interviews mentioned how hard they're working to keep it together you'd care more about supporting them, and maybe even pay attention at the show instead of talking at the bar, because it wouldn't just be about paying your £8 to hang out with a hotly-tipped crowd for an electronica gig!

I'm picturing a scene from Logan's Run now . . .

I think it was alluded to above, but knowing what someone does for a living or similar activities can apply to a musician who bases much of their work on socio-political contexts. Hardcore anti-corporates, vegans, whatever have to be careful what they purchase, eat, wear, and work for if that's the major mode of their music. Like Nick & Tomas were saying, you just gotta reconcile making art & money, and I have my own suspicions that some artists you see unwilling to talk about it haven't made that reconciliation for themselves.

so many things to do that music, though it's really going well, is almost a hobby, but A Hobby Supreme

I think this is one concept that affects people's willingness to discuss their day-life. I've seen it around on some chat sites, people get labelled 'hobbyists' if they're not full-time musicians and I think that reflects the misconception that all musicians you see written up in a mag are rolling along nicely. And if you're not you're not for real.

I was feeling bad about working 40 hours a week last year, felt like I was being held back but couldn't see an alternative at the time. It's nice to see Greg saying he's looking into it! This is what Seymour was saying to me, as we're both working M-F jobs, that it doesn't make you less of a musician, but the kind of music you will make playing once a week or once a month will be very different from the kind of music someone makes who is playing every day. Especially in terms of building up a 'repetoire' or the pressure to do so. Instead of playing every day, you'll be thinking about playing everyday, and applying that to the times you actually do a gig, recording, whatever. And as Greg said, concentration on recording is a plus. The music will be different, not necessarily worse, less professional, or uncool.

I'll pause there now!

Michael

P.S. Nick - non-profit, eh? That explains the hair! :)

Elk wrote:

"I thought some people had managed something like this in France and Sweden, but you have to sign up, play 150 gigs a year at the approved places and write out a lot of paperwork for not too much, but a salary of some kind. But, I could be wrong and I know it's getting more and more difficult."

Actually, I remember talking to Dat Politics about this a long time ago. They told me that they were indeed supported by the government as performing artists, and as such were given salaries in exchange for a certain number of performances a year -- I think it was somewhere around 100, but I could be wrong. As far as I remember, they told me the salary was fairly low, but it was more than enough for them to have a house in Lille (a cheaper area in France, I believe, though please correct me if I'm wrong). It also provided enough funds for them to release records on Skipp. This was as of a couple of years ago, so I have no idea if this information is still valid or not.

P.S. Michael - yup, it most definitely does! Who else would let me come into work every day looking like a madman, or let me play Runzelstirn on my computer speakers? How's London treating you these days?

hi
m'not intermittent neither
its a question of amount of hours worked and declared
or an certain amount of 'concerts', declared as well.

its true Dan, i remember Jérôme made little speech 2 or 3 yeays ago about it at Instants Chavirés, when there was actually some problems with the government and this special status for artists or people working in such fields as theater, cinema, television...

well, was just happy to post again on Bagatellen

bye bye boyssss!

Alexandre

Michael wrote:
"I was feeling bad about working 40 hours a week last year, felt like I was being held back but couldn't see an alternative at the time. It's nice to see Greg saying he's looking into it!"

I'm already working 40 hours a week, have been since getting out of school, but for the last 7 years, I've had either temp jobs or my current job which have allowed me to leave for a week, 2 weeks, or a month at a time. What I'm thinking about doing is getting something less flexible, but w/ less meager wages.

Michael wrote:
"...but the kind of music you will make playing once a week or once a month will be very different from the kind of music someone makes who is playing every day."

You can still play every day, just at home, without the adoring and/or hateful crowds. In general, I prefer not to play out TOOOOO much anyway these days. It can get to be a blur for me and I feel like it's harder to invest as much physical & psychic energy into it.

As for studio musicians, definitely nothing at all wrong w/ that. Hal Blaine is amazing!

I wrote:
"It can get to be a blur for me and I feel like it's harder to invest as much physical & psychic energy into it."

It should go without saying that this is me talking about myself. It's harder to invest as much physical & psychic energy into it for ME at this point in time. For others, they can be ON and ready all the time and tour endlessly, do session gigs, money gigs, whatever and they love it. That's great. I think for all of this stuff in general, different situations fit different needs and none is better than any other. Charles Ives and Kafka worked in insurance and it obviously doesn't relegate their music to "amateur" status. I can see some musicians not wanting to be thought of as amatuers and thus not wanting to talk about day jobs. Because... there are musicians who think of other musicians who need day jobs as "amateurs". Unenlightened & irrelevant viewpoint.

Serious question: would you rather be an "amateur" (per Greg's definition above) or an academician?

...and what about Cold Bleak Heat?

Derek:
"Greg, I’m enjoying Cold Bleak Heat’s new Family Vineyard disc, have you guys done any shows/touring?"

Derek:
"...and what about Cold Bleak Heat?"

Right... Thanks! We played last Thursday in NYC and may play another NYC date in March. And that's all that's planned right now.

Joe:
"Serious question: would you rather be an "amateur" (per Greg's definition above) or an academician?"

Did I define "amateur"? Meaning earning money from other means than music? And an "academician"? I suppose I'd choose amateur, but it's cliched and too easy to bash the academy. I think both terms are genuinely lazily used as quick put-downs instead of actually having to really look into what's being done.

Academic AND amateur, baby! Okay, so the former has nothing to do with the latter but fuck it.

Hey Greg, Weddle just dropped off CBH the other night. Looking forward to listening to it.

This is interesting, as all have said. Maybe I just haven't toured as much as you, Greg, but I'm still focused on trying to do that. Recording is kind of an "everyday" thing for me, not for release, but for my own use.

I'm sort of in the school of "need to play a lot," so I've always tried to work as little as possible to leave time (and headspace) for music. My current job is pretty good (except now and late summer when I'm busy) because I work about 20hrs a week & get full time pay (not a lot, but enough to save for a tour a coupla times a year). Touring is a big $suck - fly somewhere, buy gas/food/&c, maybe make enough $ to buy a couple tanks of gas. But it's the reason I work at all. If I didn't want to tour, I'd move back to Portland and couchsurf like all my buddies there. Or squat...(there are still some places in U$A to do this...)

My buddy Wilson Zorn in Portland works full time as a tech bigshot for Adidas, is married, and has like 600 pets, but he still plays great music and seems to have boundless energy. So what works for one may not matter for another.

Yeah, definitely you can play as much as you have free time for, whether it's at home or whatever. I was thinking more about the difference between playing in more 'real' scenarios such as on stage or recording sessions. I know my style would alter if I was playing more gigs, and I know some players who are unable to play on stage the way they do on stage. Nerves, maybe, I dunno.

The there's the added bonus that I play music and co-run a label! Very often I'd like to sit down and play, I've got some energy left after my day at work, but after dinner I'm going to spend the next three hours designing cover art, assembling packages, updating the website, etc.

I know I know "make your bed, so you gotta piss in it. . ." I'm working on moving to a planet with a 28 hour day!

I think one thing to be thankful for is these days it's much easier to get your discs round the world, so if you can't afford time or money to travel you can still manage to distribute nicely.

I've gotten the same phoneme three times in a row. What have I won?

Michael

There was a letter in The Wire ages ago about all this, though it was from the perspective of a reader curious about the age of some of the musicians covered - if you're reading about someone "new" and they're in their 30s/40s/50s+, what have they been doing up til then? Suspect the answer in most cases is simply that, given the low profile of experimental music, it may well take some 10 years or so before the wider world hears you.

The whole topic begs the other question of how important technique and virtuosity is with regard to experimental music and improvisation - whether this is now a totally redundant issue, a question of degree, or simply different strokes for different folks.

Speaking personally, my day job effects my music practice in a very direct way. Because I'm in front of a computer screen all day it's possibly actually the tactile experience of playing the violin or the guitar or piano that I value the most. There's a real qualitative difference from things I have to think about and interact with at work. That's a useful spur, in a sense. (Though it does mean that, two years since I added the thing, I still haven't worked out how to record on my PC's soundcard. I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to switch on a computer in the evening). I'd be interested to know if, say, there are any laptop musicians out there who are also glued to their screens for their 9-5.

Just realized that the above paints my day job in an artificially harsh light (though there is a fair bit of that emitting from the ceilings). I edit books - it's actually reasonably creative, and frequently and necessarily involves a lot of discussion about language and music. Can't complain (all that much).

Faster spake:
"Maybe I just haven't toured as much as you, Greg, but I'm still focused on trying to do that."

I don't think it's got to do with having toured more or less as much as the variations in focus which suit different needs or aesthetics or whatever. It's not like after playing x-thousand gigs, you suddenly become fed up, bored, jaded or hopeless. Some may decide they need more. Some less.

Faster spaketh further:
"Recording is kind of an "everyday" thing for me, not for release, but for my own use."

I meant more in terms of channelling creative energy into making albums moreso than tours. Which wouldn't mean making *more* albums or recording more. Just shifting the gaze.

Not publicizing your day job is one thing, but what about the reverse? Do the people you work with know what kind of art inspires you?

Now, I'm not a professional musician. Not even an amateur to be honest, but I do practice every day on my own. Not many people I know at the office realize that I play vibraphone. Not many people at the office even know what a vibraphone is. Hell, some of my closest friends are still puzzled as to what to think, and some who haven't been up to see us in the past couple years don't even know.

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but it's come to my attention just how many players (people I know or have met) are wealthy, or from wealthy backgrounds. I have to admit I can't stomach people my age (32) and up who still get $ from their parents or who haven't had to work for other reasons. It's my bias, sure, but I'm pretty comfortable with it.

I still think this is a fascinating topic, and now I'm wondering about a lot of people I've played with over the years but don't know well...

I work at DSL Tech Support at a local ISP and do futureless gigs to get the money for living while we work on our second production, since the first one was kind of a failure because of legal problems with the producer.