It's probably not too helpful, but I'm happy to repeat here that I'm psyched that Levine is coming to the B.S.O. His first-year programming is great. Ozawa was pretty bad.

FWIW, I'd add Koussevitsky, Jochum, Barbirolli, Bohm, Karajan, Boulez, and Gielen to your list. I don't know too many women conductors, but I liked Sarah Caldwell's work back when she was with the Boston Opera (and could stay awake).

Weren't many of the first noted conductors, like Berlioz, also composers as well?

There's no doubt a really good Marxist explanation for the "rise of the conductor", seeing as there are those who consider the modern orchestra a feudal system anyway. But this may be reading too much into the central and elevated physical position the conductor assumes... after all, he or she has to be seen by the musicians.

Leave us not forget Dmitri Mitropoulos, who helmed the NYPO for 9, pre-Lenny years.

Yes, definitely Mitropoulos!

(Don't like "helmed" though.)

Helmeted?

Okay, but why? What's so great about these guys?

(how about honchoed?)

I don't like "streeted" either: saw that today somewhere.

What's great about them? I don't know, hard work, intelligence, sensitivity, leadership skills, willingness to take risks, the usual stuff. More than the usual talent quotient, I guess.

So those are the attributes that you look for in an exemplary conductor? Those could be applied easily to superior performance in pretty much any artistic vocation.

I just think it’s interesting that we can usually pick out what makes a given musician exciting/admirable to us in regards to technique, approach, ‘sound’, etc. But the naming of these traits seems more equivocal in the case of a conductor. For example, is it the way he wields his wand? Is it the way he knows each of his instrumentalist’s ticks & talents to the smallest detail? Is it the way he mobilizes the resources of the an otherwise lackluster orchestra to create an unexpected & striking Gestalt? And more to point how does he do these things? What are the specific traits/tactics that feed into his greatness? What separates these guys from each other besides their surnames? Perhaps the answers to these questions are obvious. Perhaps they’re not worth addressing/exploring. Perhaps I just need to read some books/articles on the subject :) But I’d love to know them just the same.

Fwiw, I’m not down with ‘streeted’ either.

"willingness to take risks"

How so? Can you think of any examples of a conductor doing so?

(that sounds curt but I'm genuinely curious)

Conductors are often musical directors as well, and so have a big say in a given orchetra's repertoire. Back in the 1960's here in Dallas, Donald Johanos led the DSO, and he did a fantastic job of making sure that truly new music was heard. I know he sponsored recitals by Pauline Oliveros, Bert Turetzky, and Stuart Dempster, and particiapted in recordings of pieces by Donalnd Erb, John Eaton (with his Synkey), Gunther Schuller and Lukas Foss (I believe), among others.

Yes, I was thinking about programming decisions mostly (though taking a tempo faster/slower than anybody else has to show a new or neglected facet of a piece is also risky).

Derek, each of these guys has different talents/specialities. To give one example, Boulez is very good at "lucidity." Even in very contrapuntal, complicated stuff, you can always hear every line. There's never any mud. That's really important (and pretty difficult) in guys like Schoenberg, Ives, Carter, Wuorinen, Babbitt,etc. His Bartok is also very good.

I think his Beethoven is pretty lousy though.

Again, Bernstein, who was, e.g., great with Ives was terrible with Mozart. Some, like George Szell, were pricks, universally hated, but who built wonderful orchestras that fell apart when they left. (Like coaches who are "excellent teachers.") Stravinsky was a great conductor of his own stuff, but I can't imagine him doing Brahms. OTOH, Bohm was great at both Mozart and Berg, but not, I think, remembered for too much besides.

And so it goes.

Now we're talking, Walt (& Joe). Thanks for the handle on Boulez, Bernstein, Szell, Stravinsky, etc. It's interesting to me how conductors become associated with certain composers, their reputations hinging on how well they can translate/interpret/enhance scores. And the flip-side, how ill-fitting their individual talents are to the work of others. Not nearly as common a dynamic in the jazz world, despite exceptions like Lacy. Actually, he's the only one that springs immediately to mind who's built a significant chunk of his career on explicating the work of someone else. And again, it's only a chunk given the sizeable discography that constitutes his own stuff.

To take this thread off topic, Derek, I've become interested in Lacy's interpretations of Monk. Is there a chance that any of y'all could suggest a good pair of discs, one of Monk, and one of Lacy playing some of Monk's pieces on that disc?

Get "Reflections" before your next bowel movement. Ignore the fact that Elvin has cotton fever from the H. Involved is the DEFINITIVE 'Skippy.'

Fave conductors? Man, don't get me started..
Boulez conducting just about anything written after 1890, for precision and audibility. His 68 version of "Sacre" still nearly untoppable (though Levine, I think it was, ran him close a few years back). Not as dramatic as some, but you hear the details.
For contemporary music, I was always v fond of Michael Gielen (what happened to him?) and the late Bruno Maderna.
Avoid Abbado's contemporary music releases like the plague (esp the Stockhausen Gruppen).
Oliver Knussen v good, especially on Takemitsu & Carter.
Bernstein always good on Stravinsky and, um, Bernstein. A bit over the top on Mahler - though Mahler was a bit over the top to start with.
Carlo Maria Giulini on most of the 19C romantic repertory.
Karajan on Strauss (Richard).
The old Mengelberg (Willem not Misha!!!) version of Berlioz's Fantastic Symphony is worth checking out.
Never liked Klemperer on Beethoven; too fucking slow. Rather enjoy people who jazz it up - Carlos Kleiber! Yo!
George Szell on Mozart's 35th. Rock 'n' roll.
Well, if I think of any more..
Yes, Barbirolli on Brahms & Elgar (if anyone still listens to Elgar). Prefer his Delius too, because I have a personal pet peeve against Beecham for pissing on new music at every opportunity. ("Have you ever conducted any Stockhausen, Sir Thomas?" "No but I once trod in some..")

Nirav,

I like Michael’s suggestion of REFLECTIONS (was Elvin riding the horse back then?). A good complement to it would be Monk’s GENIUS OF MODERN MUSIC, VOL. 2 (w/ readings of “Four In One,” “Hornin’ In,” “Ask Me Now” and “Skippy” in common).

But my $-shot pair would probably be Lacy’s SCHOOL DAYS and Monk’s BRILLIANT CORNERS (sharing the tunes “B-C,” Ba-Lue Bolivar Ba-Lues Are” and “Pannonica” ). MONK’S DREAM would also be a good match for SD (w/ “Bye-Ya,” “Monk’s Dream” and “Ba-Lue...” on each) though some of the edges are a bit rounded off. I picked up five the recent Columbia Quartet remasters several weeks ago & can’t seem to extricate them from by cd player. Crisp, vastly-improved sound & generous supplies of bonus tracks. I think it was Phil who was singing the praises of Charlie Rouse’s playing on these awhile back? I can definitely dig what he means.

Just thought of another jazz guy somewhat in line with Lacy’s life-long study of Monk. Kenny Burrell’s been an Ellington interpreter for quite awhile with numerous tribute albums & covers dating back most of his career.

Dan, that Ritalin-laced primer is rockin’!

I guess the important thing to remember is that the conductor is still as much a performer as any musician in the ensemble. Like the musicians themselves, the conductior has to be both understanding of and sympathetic to the music at hand.

I would also agree that Bernstein, whatever his other faults, did right by Ives. It helped that he had William Vacchiano as his principal trumpet, and John Corigliano Sr. as his concertmaster (at least for a time).

Amazingly, I agree with pretty much all of Dan's comments--except the Elgar thing: I know an absolute fanatic. He actually went on an Elgar tour a couple years ago. Met Prince Charles, who was also attending part of it. There are a ton of Elgarians out there.

Never heard that Beecham remark. Pretty funny.

BTW, for those interested, the Johanos recordings I mentioned were all for Turnabout / Vox. I have no idea what has made it to CD and what has not, but the LPs themselves are worth the hunt.

"It helped that he had William Vacchiano as his principal trumpet, and John Corigliano Sr. as his concertmaster (at least for a time)."

And the *great* woodwind players Harold Gomberg and Stanley Drucker!

Derek, read Norman Lebrecht's 'The Maestro Myth' for a concise and compelling history of the conductor, a history that basically goes back to Gluck and especially Mendelssohn, though its roots go back further still.

Lebrecht is a noted muck-raker and Cassandra of classical-industry doom, but there's still a great deal of genuine insight in this book. (Some interesting dirt, as well.)

The most significant schism in the field of conducting can be succinctly summarized (though perhaps not entirely appropriately) as Appolonian versus Dionysian, with Toscanini as the score-worshipping former and Furtwängler the freedom-loving latter.

You see this dichotomy played out over and over again throughout music history, sometimes at the very same orchestra (since so many orchestras go from one extreme to the other): in Amsterdam, Mengelberg the libertine gave rise to Van Beinum the literalist -- both of them absolutely extraordinary. The strict Szell in Cleveland was followed by the wayward Maazel, who was in turn followed by the cool, analytical Dohnányi. And so on and so on.

Both views can work, and both views can utterly fail. Ultimately, it depends upon the conductor's gifts at making his or her wishes known, as well as his or her relationship with the orchestra's players (which will ultimately dictate whether they give the conductor what he or she is asking for).

Dan, I agree with your assessment of Boulez to a point. In recent instances, however, I find him clear and analytical, but also dull as dishwater. His old Sony recordings of Varèse were revelatory; his newer DG disc has no reason to exist. Dull, dull, dull. A recent performance of pieces by Ravel, Messiaen and Bartók left me impressed but unmoved.

Walt, I wish you the best with Levine in Boston, and yes, almost anyone with a pulse would be an improvement. My concern, however, is that Levine is devoted to composers and music that were contemporary when Levine was himself a Juilliard student -- you'll get Carter, Babbitt, Wuorinen, Martino perhaps. But I don't get the sense his interest goes very much further. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

Dan, one of my favorite Beecham bon mots was when he likened the sound of Wanda Landowska's iron-frame harpsichord to the sound of "two skeletons copulating on a tin roof."

Why aren't there any notable women conductors? Well, why hasn't there been a woman president? Answer: Because America still hasn't seen fit to proclaim certain roles suitable for women. Marin Alsop was just here last weekend to lead the NYPhil in Bernstein's 'Candide' -- safe because it's a guest appearance and because Marin is a Bernstein pupil. But would New York offer her the position of music director? Not in a million years. I'd like to see a second-tier orchestra like Dallas or Houston hire her to get the ball rolling, though.

Is Alsop the equal of her male colleagues? Damned hard for us to assess in the U.S., where she conducts relatively infrequently. And her recorded repertoire so far consists primarily of offbeat repertoire; we have yet to hear her in Brahms or Bartók, so there are few grounds for comparison as yet (though she will have recordings of both out on Naxos by this time next year).

Interestingly, Alsop has just finished her second year as music director of the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, and the readers of conservative classical mag Gramophone voted her musician of the year for 2003. I asked her to what she attributed the seemingly more open-minded stance of the Britons, and she suggested, "Well, maybe because they've seen Margaret Thatcher as an example of a strong woman leader..."

Don't even get me started on the lack of young American conductors in significant American posts. We'd rather import largely unproven young Europeans... sometimes it works well (Esa-Pekka Salonen), and sometimes it's a rough match (Franz Welser-Möst). Recommendation: Keep an eye on Robert Spano in Atlanta, David Robertson in St. Louis and Alan Gilbert when he eventually gets hired. They're the next generation of important stickmen.

Oh, and Dan? Sure, Barbirolli for Elgar, as well as for warm, personal takes on Mahler 5 and 9 and some Sibelius, as well. (Can't speak to his Delius; I'll hold fast with Beecham there.)

But for Brahms, give me Jochum, first, last and always.

To Dan once again: Gielen's extremely active, recording Bruckner, Brahms and lots of other stuff for the Hänssler label, all of it very fine (including a recent Mahler 1 as good as any I've ever heard). It's paired with Ives's Central Park in the Dark and The Unanswered Question. Similiarly, he pairs the Mahler 2 with Kurtág and Schoenberg; his Bruckner 8 is matched with Morton Feldman's Coptic Light. Go figure.

You can see some listings and read some reviews by searching on Gielen's name at www.classicstoday.com.

Steve,
You're right about recent Bouzel [sic]. Not as good as the recordings from late 60s to early 80s.
And yes I'd forgotten Barbirolli on Mahler. One small regret of mine is that I never saw JB conduct - I grew up in Manchester and was taken to Hallé Orchestra concerts when I was 7.. JB died the year before. Instead we got James Loughran.. pretty 2nd division in comparison, but he did do a lot of contemporary music. I saw the UK premieres of Ligeti's Atmospheres, Lontano, Xenakis' Eridanos (conducted by that well-known devil worshipper Michel Tabachnik), and enough weird shit to screw me up for the rest of my life. Eugen Jochum? Never heard him do Mahler.. I'm too busy trying to make sense of these new Erstwhiles :))

I never saw Barbiroilli conduct, either -- but then again, when he was in Houston, I think I was probably in the lower single digits, agewise.

I can't quite imagine Jochum doing Mahler, but his Brahms makes me swoon. I think you can get an early set of all four symphonies at midprice on DG in mono sound, but I swear by his later London Phil remakes on EMI -- not quite as economical, but divine nonetheless.

Other things well worth a listen:

Reiner's Bartók
Munch's Debussy and Ravel
Ansermet's Stravinsky (duff orchestra notwithstanding)
Dutoit's Ravel
Maazel's Prokofiev Romeo and Juliet and Respighi Pines of Rome
Jochum's Bruckner
Gergiev in just about any Russian opera
Sawallisch's Schumann
Barshai's Shostakovich
Dohnányi's Webern
Rattle's Haydn (!) and Janacek
Mackerras's Mozart and Janacek

God, where to cut this off...?

Steve, thanks so much for the book rec & drive-by (lots of choice tidbits to whet the appetite therein). Please swing by more often if you’re able; there’s a prime spot with your name on it in the Bags parking lot.

Damn! Chailly's Varèse!!!

And Chung's composer-approved Messiaen!!!

(Thanks, Derek. I'm procrastinating today, but I should try to swing by more often...)

Two more: Rudolph Kempe's Richard Strauss, and Willi Boskovsky's Johann Strauss. (HELL yeah.)

There, that's all for today. (For now, anyway.)

Just wanted to chime in with Steve on Jochum's Brahms and Bruckner. He's my absolute fave for both.

I haven't followed Blouze's [almost sic] since the 80s, so I can't comment on whether he's deteriorated.

As for Levine, he's also programming the local bigshot Harbison (who I don't care for)--but, if he does Carter and that gang, I'll be happy. After all, I'm a duffer too. I don't really need to hear Ades in concert. I'll be happy if, before I die, the BSO plays some Richard Donovan and some Vermeulen. Plus, Levine is a good, solid conductor. Ozawa did sometimes program new music (especially Tan and Takemitsu), but not only can't he conduct his way out of a paper bag, he's allowed the orchestra to drop a notch or two. As I understand it, his biggest asset was his connection to NEC (and I'm not talking about the conservatory).

np: Thomas Stacy: Three English Horn Concerti (Rorem, Persichetti, Hodkinson)

New England Confections?

I never actually heard the BSO live under Ozawa, but the one time I heard the orchestra under other leadership at Carnegie Hall during the last year, there was ample evidence of the degeneration of which you speak. Tan Dun conducted his own multimedia cello concerto, The Map, which I actually thought was quite fine. (Yo-Yo was the live soloist, of course.)

Presumably, this is what they spent pretty much all of the rehearsal time on, because the Shostakovich Overture on Russian and Khirghiz Folk Themes (not one of his more inspired works to begin with) was an utter slog, and the Four Sea Interludes from Peter Grimes (which absolutely are among Britten's most inspired pieces) were not much better.

Most effective and beautiful of all was Cage's early ballet score, The Seasons, which had more than a bit in common with Satie. The orchestra sounded beautiful, as it also did in Tan's own piece.

Whatever his other shortcomings may be, Levine is if nothing else a masterful orchestra builder. He'll have that baby purring in no time.

Just in case that last post was unclear, Tan Dun conducted the entire program that I heard at Carnegie Hall. Only the final paragraph referred to Levine.

Derek, maybe this article about how conductors learn their trade will help you out: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/04/schiff.htm

Thanks for the link, Mwanji. Looking forward to checking out the article on my lunch furlough.

Orson Welles uses to say that conductors was useless. He adds that two centuries ago it was the first violin who conducted the orchestra and that was good enough (this first violin could be also a woman.)
The proove of the inutility of the conductors was demonstrated for Welles by the fact that they all live very very old.

I will add few names to the conductors already quote: Pierre Monteux (Beethoven, Berlioz, Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky) Antal Dorati (Bartok, Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Stravinsky), Karel Ancerl (Dvorak, Mussorgsky, Stravinsky, Shostakovich), Jascha Horenstein (Malher), Michel Plasson (Fauré, the French Opéra), Michael Tilson-Thomas (Debussy, Feldman.)