Al, [edit: formerly, "Derek,"] I would agree that Kamuca -- and the whole band, for that matter; does Victor Feldman sound quite this good anywhere else in his discography? (if I recall correctly, it was the Blackhawk performances, or at least perforamnces from this era, that made Miles want to poach Feldman for his own band) -- is in that zone here. But he did make some fine records under his own name: a two-tenor date with Bill Perkins, likewise terribly under-rated; the late 50's, Bill Holman-arranged date for David Axelrod's Hi-Fi Jazz; and three Concord Jazz releases from the the mid to late 70's, including one with Blue Mitchell, that are highly prized by collectors and LONG overdue for re-issue. In fact, until these Concords are better known, I'm not sure we will ever have a truly complete picture of the musician.

There may be no better tribute to Kamuca's ability than the admiration in which he was / is held by both Lee Konitz and Warne Marsh. Kamuca appears on Konitz's DUETS, and the Bill Evans / Konitz / Marsh CROSSCURRENTS (Fantasy, now an OJC) is, in part, a tribute to a fallen Brother.

I’m more or less with you on Mariano, though I’ve only heard a fraction of his post-50s work as a leader. Kamuca’s another story. I think his chief ‘problem’ was being buried in big bands (Stan Kenton, Woody Herman’s Herd, Terry Gibbs Dream Band, Maynard Ferguson, Thad Jones/Mel Lewis, Merv Griffin TV show orchestra(!)) during prime years. Likely lucrative gigs, but they compromised his time available to lead dates & hold the spotlight. That said I’ve never really heard a bum record with him on it- TENORS HEAD ON teaming him w/ Bill Perkins is a killer. THE ROUTE w/ Pepper & Baker is a bit sleepy in places, but again, Kamuca turns in solid work. I dig his dates for Mode & Hi-Fi too, but haven’t heard his 70s Concord stuff. I remember you claiming something similar about Cliff Jordan in that Mingus piece you wrote for AAJ awhile back- sill feel that way?

Relatedly, in a soon to be published poll I was asked the playfully preposterous question of which are the greatest trio, quartet, quintet & large ensemble groups of all-time. I had to go with Shelly Manne’s Blackhawk Men for the quintet category- that five-disc run on Contemporary is a jazz pinnacle in my book.

Why do I have to be Derek? Joe, I have all those you mentioned, and Mundell Lowe is a revelation on "Richie". Those Concords have always had a disposition close to Konitz's TENORLEE for me, if only in the loose feeling it tends to leave you with. While they're beautiful for Kamuca's playing, I prefer the Blackhawk stuff and the Hi-Fi date... everyone's on fire on those discs.

Have either of you had the chance to catch the Jazz Scene USA DVD that features Kamuca with the other (actual) Manne Quintet of the time (w/ Condoli, Russ Freeman & Budwig)? Richie's the epitome of cool and the whole group turns out some killer music. That DVD's also great for a very young Gary Peacock testing the patience of Shorty Rogers' Giants with some pretty far out (for its time) bass departures.

"Why do I have to be Derek?"

Yoiks. My only excuse is that I'm totally stoopid after making the round trip on I35 from here to Austin yesterday. (Beautiful weather, though.)

Whither the ringer? It could be that, in the world of improv, the era of "other people's music" as a kind of style-specific "canon" (i.e., Monk) is passing or even long gone. EVERYONE these days, it seems, works consistently as a "leader", or is being groomed for leadership, and I think there is certain looking-down-the-nose going on with respect to the player who has come up through the ranks but does not quite break with those ranks. Maybe it has to do with the dissolution of a common language among so many improvising musicians, with the result that collaboration edges into compromise from some points-of-view. Think about what Mariano surrendered to Mingus' music: here is a Bird-derived soloist, already drawn to Eastern musical traditions, being asked to play, at times, like Johnny Hodges ("Celia" and "I X Love" come to mind), at other times almost like Earl Bostic. His is terribly intense playing, but I'm not sure how "individual" it is; Mariano just had the chops to pull it off.

Kamuca's case is a bit different. Manne and co. allowed him to cut loose. Credit here goes to trumpeter Joe Gordon, a harmonically adventurous player who seems to spur Kamuca as much as Feldman, Budwig and Manne. A unique example, perhaps, of the friendly competitiveness that is so integral to the hard bop idiom -- or is it something more?

Joe, that certainly leaves something to consider. Was it perhaps a matter of roominess in the performing environment (as opposed to today's overly crowded population of musicians and labels)?

Mariano had the chops all right. He's like Sybil on the x5 record.

Whatever became of Mariano? Last thing I have of his is an Eberhard Weber thing from 1980..
Oh you got asked to take part in the Fred Jung silly poll too Derek? I declined.. choosing a year's Best Of is hard enough. Trying to select the best trio, quartet and quintet is.. well, words fail me.

Haven’t caught that dvd yet Al, but the footage sounds great. I love the pics of Kamuca circa late-50s/early 60s- clean cut Italian look w/ the slicked back not quite pompadour, tweed sport coats, etc. He definitely had the West Coast ‘cool’ fashion sense.

That’s an interesting point about ‘everyone’ bucking for a leadership position these days. One guy who’s slipped outside that trend (though from what I understand that’s likely to change soon) is Hamid Drake. He’s been on scores of sessions & up until recently didn’t really seemed concerned with fronting his own groups.

Mariano had that Osmosis fusion group for awhile, right? But did that stretch into the 80s?

Dan, agreed on the poll, a pointless exercise, just like pretty much all polls gauging the ‘all-time greatest’ anything. But Fred’s a nice guy so I thought I’d participate.

Mariano has in recent years returned to more "striaght-ahead", i.e., acoustic, playing. His recent (2003 / 2002) quartet release DEEP IN A DREAM (Enja) gives an excellent sense of where is he now. It's a pretty profound meditation on standard ballad material, actually, very recommended.

Of his "eastern"-oriented records, I've always liked JYOTHI with the Karnataka College of Percussion / R.A. Ramamani the best. Another ECM date.

BTW -- as long as we are talking about those "whatever happened to?" Mingus associates, a moment of silence, please, for both Shafi Hadi and Clarence "Gene" Shaw.

& Willie Dennis. You can barely hear him on Mingus's Ah Um & Blues & Roots but he's there. His work on Ronnie Ball's Savoy shows what a remarkable player he was.

I should be interviewing Philip Catherine this evening, I'll try to ask him about Mariano.

Even if it's not a recent record, the last interesting thing I've heard from Mariano is his duet with André Jaume, recorded live at the Europa Jazz Festival from Le Mans in 1990.
Abbaye de l'Epau, is very close to the meeting than Jaume had with Jimmy Giuffre, sometimes before (as documented in the hatOLOGY.)
In fact, Jaume TURNS Mariano INTO Giuffre: conterpoint, introspection (with a bit more nervous drive from Mariano), beautiful theme from both men... Jaume plays Bass clarinet & tenor sax, Mariano alto saxe & flute.
They end the disc with to title freely improvise.
Personnally, I've never heard Mariano in a such "progressive" context before or after.
Highly recommended (André Jaume/ Charlie Mariano: Abbaye de l'Epau" (CELP/ Harmonia Mundi.)

If you're intersted to know what happened after Charlie Mariano's move to Europe please visit http://www.charliemarianotribute.de/ and enjoy!
Cheers, hepcat1950