Bruce at Downtown Music Gallery in NYC is a wild-eyed Zorn partisan. One day, feeling open-eared, I wandered into DMG and said, "Sell me on Masada." He threw on whatever their most recent release was (it was one of the live ones - Taipei, maybe, or Jerusalem). I listened for about five minutes or so; in any case, I didn't make it through the first piece. It just didn't work for me. I might be willing to try again, but I'd need a solid, backed-up recommendation. Anybody wanna give it a shot? (I'm still thinking the live albums may be the place to start, but if anybody thinks different, let me know that, too.)

"Bruce at Downtown Music Gallery in NYC is a wild-eyed Zorn partisan."

seriously? huh, just when you think you know a guy... :)

Masada live used to be cool, I don't know how they are since they've become a sporadically playing institution. their first ten or so records are really all about the same level, I sold them all in one bunch one day. maybe the live CDs is the way to go, by the time those were coming out, I didn't care nearly as much. you also might like Electric Masada more, who play a lot now, although they're even farther away from my own taste.

what happened to your latest blog?

Phil, I'd go with ALEF (1st studio disc) then maybe one of the live ones and call it good.

I took my 7 year old (then 6) to see Electric Masada a little over a year ago. He enjoyed it quite a bit but I thought the band rather sucked. Much like a jam band and sounded as contrived as can be.

I only have Live in Jerusalem and I like it alright. I don't feel the urge to go out and listen to more, though.

Al, I've heard and seen Douglas stretch out without Zorn around. Granted, the Masada music does light a fire under the man's trumpet and ass.

Just wondering if Phil still thinks JZ is a "huckster" or not :))

"His own led releases sound fairly soft by comparison" --? yes, Charms of the Night Sky or the horribly precious The Invisible, but there's plenty of bite to In Our Lifetime or Witness.

Like virtually everyone else I know, I have exactly one Masada album (the 3rd DIW disc), & like it well enough, & have no intention of purchasing another. Any residual curiosity I had was unceremoniously squashed by the live gig by Electric Masada I saw last year, which was dumb (not "so dumb it's good" or "smart musicians playing dumb"....no, this was back to pure "dumb").

Phil -- I can recommend LIVE IN SEVILLA 2000, the one Masada record, other than the "expanded ensembles" BAR KOKHBA, I've kept in my collection (never had them all). Zorn and Douglas seem to really be sharing the same wavelength on this gig, and the band as a whole sounds like they've really cohered after many nights on the bandstand. They're "on".

>Just wondering if Phil still thinks JZ is a "huckster" or not :))

Yes, I do. And I deleted my blog because my boss found it.

Phil, did you get in some sort of trouble with your boss because of the blog?

I never liked Masada and still don't, but what I really find surprising about Al's entry is the remark to the effect that he doesn't get the Ornette connection. Zorn's denied that too, which has also always seemed very strange to me.

I really don't get it. To me Ornette + klezmer = Masada is kinda like 2 + 2 = 4. The similarities are just gigantic.

Nate. . .what's the beef w/'Charms of the Night Sky'? The first of their two recordings is probably the only Douglas I've thoroughly enjoyed. While I dig the follow-up somewhat, I don't find it as arresting as the W&W.

Yeah, I'd have to agree with Walt. Back when the first bunch appeared, it seemed clear that Zorn was drawing primarily on Ornette (though I though more the late 60's groups than the earlier ones). I liked those a bunch at the time, saw the band on several occasions and like 'Bar Kokhba' and (to a lesser extent) 'Circle Maker' very much. I think I have the first six or seven discs. But they began to pall for me around '98. Jon and I went to see them at Symphony Space sometime after then and it was pretty tediously routine by that point. Saw Chamber Masada at Victo in '01 and, as I wrote at the time, it was very professional and that was the problem. You got the strong sense that all these guys could get pushed out of bed in the middle of the night and play their parts. About a year ago (?) I was at Tonic to hear someone play in the subtonic lounge--Electric Masada was playing to a full house up top. You could hear the band very clearly from the lobby and, to my utter lack of surprise, it sounded exactly like you would've thought: slightly funked up, electrified versions of the Masada songbook, played with a scarily fusoid precision.

Of relatively recent Zorn output that I've heard (and what I've heard has dwindled off to near nil the last few years), his "classical" pieces have worked the best, particularly the two on the 'Redbird' disc.

"Leng T'che" remains my personal favorite of his catalogue.

Hey, I like COTNS too. I's just saying that Masada is really the only place I've heard Douglas put his nuts out there.

So Zorn doesn't get the Ornette thing either? Then it's settled. :) Seriously, I best tried to explain what I hear with the Mulligan comparison, but sadly that's as deep as it gets.

Phil, do tell. Does boss=wife in this case? Something tells me not.

Nope, boss=boss. As in day job.

as a saxophone player living in new york zorn has haunted me with his sucking for far to long.. as sax player especially he has a lot of sucking going on,, electric masada, uhhhhhhhh...

I still dig Masada quite a bit, though I think the live Tzadik sets are more exciting/enjoyable than the Avant studio ones. SEVILLA and JERUSALEM are probably my faves out of the former camp. MIDDLEHEIM & TONIC are fun, though a notch below IMO. TAIPEI has energy to burn, but the rinky-dink acoustics subtract a few points from the total. FIRST LIVE is more of historical interest, but has some moments. I haven’t heard electric Masada, but the schematic on paper doesn’t really excite me.

Al & I have already gone a few rounds on the Masada-Ornette parallel versus perpendicular. I definitely hear a connection, particularly in the early studio stuff. That Mulligan/Baker comparison is intriguing though.

Phil, I didn’t get your ‘huckster’ characterization of Zorn in NYiN & still don’t. Ditto on your contention that he’s been a divisive force on the NY ‘scene’ historically. Curious if you’ve ever engaged him in person on those issues. And hey, bosses be damned, bring back the Blog! I miss it.

Charms of the Night Sky? I like it a lot (the first one; haven't heard the 2nd); simply was objecting to the characterization of Douglas as "soft".

On the other hand, I hated The Invisible.

The name of the record is The Infinite.

Oh right, I must be getting messed up via the Ornette Coleman tune.

I didn't realize Masada was such a controversial topic. I heard the quartet live a few years back in a concert hall and was blown away. They were extremely exciting by all accounts.

Of all of John Zorn's projects, this is the one I imagined would received the least negative ink. I'd have figured all you guys who are into process would appreciate the massive songbook compiled by Zorn (in less than 2 years I've read) and the consistency with which this quartet performs these compositions.

I am also interested in reading about John Zorn "the huckster" and, separately, John Zorn "the suck-er."

Also, when did it become a negative for a chamber ensemble to have their charts memorized? We can't evaluate all music with the same measures.