Uh, yeah, that stuff matters of course. Not always, though, and it doesn't have to. The best thing I've heard in a long time was on a cdr that someone gave me (which I subsequently purchased, of course...)

The packaging *shouldn't* matter, I suppose, but in a way it's like a job interview: while a person's apparel doesn't reflect how well they can do a job, the effort they put into looking appropriate reflects how serious they are about wanting the job. It's a small way of showing how much you care.

I know when I've toured and sold cdrs, the ones with distinctive/special packaging have been the hottest items. Hand-sewn sleeves, unique photographs, and hand-colored images have personal human effort and love in them, and everybody wants a little more love in their music.

joesualdo

PS:
rasbliutto recordings

It does matter. And I hate not knowing why. We received a couple of Creative Sources promos a few days ago and I was immediately struck by how nice the packaging and layout are. Beautiful, unassuming artwork that made me want to listen. In fact, I postponed a game of catch with my 6 year old in order to have some alone time with the CD player. I should add that I made up for the delay by applauding his patience and baking pizza.

Jeronimo/Joe, I check out some of your many websites and your quirky personas are quite strange, like something out of McSweeney's. I want to hear some of your music.

Jeromino, I agree wholeheartedly- it’s all about the love. And I dig your job interview analogy. Thanks also for sharing your sites- Davu Seru & Andrew Lafkas are indeed making things happen here in the Twin Cities.

But I think the packaging *should* matter. It’s a peripheral part of music that rarely receives the props it deserves (though if memory serves, I think there’s a Grammy category for album packaging & notes- yikes). When a lot of effort/creativity goes into that side of things it can, as Al said, significantly enhance the listening experience and, as you mentioned, increase sales.

Rhino Entertainment is in/famous for taking this kind of thing to cool & crackpot extremes with their box sets: the Can You Dig It! Soul set with facsimile 8-track packaging & the Brain in a Box Sci Fi collection featuring holographic decals and retro pop-art cartoons being two stand-out examples. Of course all of this costs money, and probably lots of it- something shoe-string improv ensembles, by definition, almost never have. And if they did, would they spend it on packaging (over say touring or promotion)? Probably not.

Alan Silva’s Treasure Box Project seems an exception to the rule- four cds of the Celestrial Communication Orchestra ensconced in wooden boxes, hand-painted/crafted by the man himself, limited to an edition of 385. They carry a steep price tag, but what price can one truly place on art? Will he lose his shirt? Maybe, but it's a ballsy move nonetheless.

Thanks for.

Whether it "should" matter or not is rather moot, I suppose, but I take issue with the notion that it is part of the "listening" experience! It is part of the overall aesthetic experience, to be sure, but, unless you're making sounds with the packaging (which I do, actually, but not when I'm listening), then it is a separate (but arguably inseperable) experience.

This is not to say that it is an important distinction, for it is not. None are, really, but we can't just sit here on our hands cuz these hairs ain't gonna just up and split themselves, if you know what I'm sayin.

Jedi Mind Trix Fo$ter

"as Al said, significantly enhance the listening experience and, as you mentioned, increase sales."

Not as musical component, but as catalyst or associate or adornment/accessory.

"we can't just sit here on our hands cuz these hairs ain't gonna just up and split themselves, if you know what I'm sayin."

damn, if you guys are still looking for a motto for the site, I think we've got a winner right here.

Jon, your votes of confidence are a never-ending cyclone of inspiration for us. Sincerest thanks.

Either my sentence suffered from poor word choice (probably) or the hair has been split with a Paul Bunyan-sized axe (ouch).

Probably not worth clarifying, but by "listening" experience I meant the process of sitting down with the disc in a comfortable easy chair, ear goggles affixed, drinking in the sounds, investigating/fondling the packaging, reading the liners, gazing out the window at the grassy lawn, etc. The whole ball of wax. Basically what ol Jesus means by "overall aesthetic experience." In other words we're on the same page. There, I feel vindicated.

On a completely unrelated note, I'd like to cast my vote for Jon Abbey as Bagatellen mascot.

If nominated, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve.

Just getting back to the initial prompt for the thread--actually, though much of the CD-ROM pile you get is dire, I don't mind doing the CD-Ring column: if the hit/miss ratio is very lopsided, there's usually the odd thing in there that's worth hearing, often music you'd never come across otherwise. Many serious musicians are releasing a lot of CD-ROMs now--e.g. Derek Bailey & Paul Dunmall.

Packaging is very important, but it's important not to confuse that with novelty or luxury packaging. I usually like something that's quite simple, clear, free of typos or obvious errors, & preferably doesn't have an image of the musician smirking on the cover. (One thing I have learned from designing my own books: not only does going with a two-tone or three-tone cover save you money, it provides a much more visually coherent, attractive cover than many full-colour covers. Witness e.g. Rhodri Davies' _Trem_ for an example of nicely restrained packaging.) There are of course labels I respect whose packaging leaves much to be desired: some of Emanem's packaging is pleasingly unpretentious, & some of it is pretty offputting (e.g. the peeling wall on the Lunge disc, or the rather boring snap of John Butcher on _Fixations_).

Most liner notes are a waste of time: they are useful if they provide information (about the circumstances of the recording, the compositional structure of tunes, factual background on the artists, &c), but hyperbolical enthuses for the music on the disc should be kept out of liner notes.

A special circle of CD-label hell should be reserved for those who put poems in liner notes.

"the rather boring snap of John Butcher on _Fixations_"

I really like Butcher, as musician and person, but still: I'm trying to imagine what an *exciting* snap of him would look like... :)

But yes, that one is particularly flagrant.

Perhaps this is too obvious to mention, but I think the main reason packaging is "important" is that humans are predominantly visual creatures, sense-wise.

Nate,

Excellent distinction on merits of luxury versus functional packaging. Not that the two are mutually exclusive, but extravagance does not necessarily imply effective aesthetic representation.

And I echo your point about the CDRing column. The most recent one I completed had a release by 3 Much Fun, a horn trio featuring Perry Robinson and two brass players unfamiliar to me prior to hearing the disc. It’s something I would never have been privy to otherwise. Still, slogging through a lot of that stuff can seem a chore.

A few of the labels I’ve been consistently smitten with packaging-wise include: the aforementioned Eremite, Okkadisk, UMS/Atavistic, Hatology, Screwgun, Blue Note & Fantasy.

I'm another one who has told publicists not to send me a CD until the artwork's final.

Hatology's little orange digipaks bug the hell out of me. They're so flimsy. I do love Okka's packages, though, and Eremite and AUM Fidelity and some of the UMS/Atavistic stuff. Tzadik's releases are beautiful; shame about the music.

I love great cover art, but my definition of "great," because of the whole heavy metal thing, is obviously different from a lot of those here. I think Derek Bailey should release a CD with a painting (in the style of a mural on a 70s custom van) of him stabbing a huge dragon to death with his guitar. I don't think it'd go platinum, but I bet it'd sell better than his usual numbers on the basis of surprise alone.

I love multiple packaging options, too. Radiohead's last three albums have come in two versions: you can buy them in a regular plastic case, or some fancy packaging (the first one looked like a children's book with thick cardboard pages, the second one actually WAS a book, and the new one is some kind of map). Of course, I buy the fancy one every time out.

Some of the BYG reissues that have been arriving lately have been coming from multiple labels - for example, you can get Archie Shepp's "Live In Antibes" as a 2-CD set in a plastic case from Fuel 2000, or you can buy Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 separately in cardboard mini-LP sleeves from Sunspots. I opted for the latter, of course - who would ever do otherwise?

I guess I'm somewhere closer to the other extreme on this stuff--I mean, I like nice artwork and everything, but....I'd go for the cheaper packaging nearly every time.

[Folks can sample Walter's design preferences via the hungry-chicks cover of _Screwdriver_ on Leo]

Ah yes, the "Hatology digipak: love it or hate it?" red flag. Actually, I have no strong opinion on this key issue of our time.

So (another red flag I'm sure) what's the verdict on ECM, a name I note is conspicuously absent so far in the discussion? I suppose it is a good counterexample to my own design principles: its covers conform to the criteria I outlined above, & I mostly hate them.

Well, I'm not asking for an exciting snap of John (though an in-concert photo rather than him sitting demurely on the grass would help)--I actually don't like shots of the musicians on the covers in general. Cover art ought to add an interesting layer of meaning to a disc; the only meaning that 90% of artist's photos add to the cover is "This is what I look like."

I'm hoping that caveats are implicit, cuz there's an awful lot of prescriptive reasoning here.

To whit, cover art ought to do whatever the artist wants it to do. If a musician has visual taste that diverges from the listener, which taste-equation gets precedence? Why, the musician's, of course. I'm sure we can agree on this.

Not totally irrelevant: What's up with Keith Rowe and his predilection for marginal Pop Art? His music is pretty hip, and he's always namedropping Duchamp...so why the Bugs Bunny schtick?

re: splitting hairs tagline: it's copywrong 2003 Marvin Gardens, so you'll have to take it up with him if you want to use it for the filthy capitalist Bagatellen multinational conglomerate's untrammelled mammon.

Jurgen Fo$termas

ps: Hey Al if you really want to, you can hear some shitty music involving me at:
rasbliutto recordings
peevish.org
FJE Trio
But beware: it might be an unsatisfying experience hearing these sounds without *gasp* any packaging at all...

Yep. The best labels package their product according to the wishes of the musicians. Tzadik, HAT(whatever), and other labels that have a unified aesthetic are easy to spot in stores and probably move more product as a result, but I prefer the idea of labels like Road Cone and ESP: every aspect of the product is determined solely by the artist's vision.

fwiw, I got a kick out of the snapshot of Butcher on the Fixations disc. It was _so_ bland and afterthought-ish, that I found it to work beautifully! Much more transparent than any carefully considered studio shot.

re: Rowe's art--He originally studied as a painter, in a very "classical" curriculum, but since the earliest AMM days, his work has been illustrative in a Pop Art sense. I think he thinks of it as being very pared down, limiting himself to outlines and a handful of colors. But one formal issue that preoccupies him is the disappearance and reappearance of elements, things that leave the frame and re-emerge, like Bugs' ear on the cover of 'Rabbit Run'. But then, probably more importantly, there's often an iconographic aspect, in this case the tensions between contemporary USA (Bugs) and, in Rumsfeld's phrase, the "Old Europe", represented by the three cypress trees lifted from Leonardo.

Differing from Nate, I dig covers that incorporate photos of the musicians. It’s a big reason behind the lasting success of Blue Note covers: Reid figuring out new & influential ways to feature Francis’ already striking images (many snapped in the otherwise banal surroundings of Rudy Van G’s studio, which makes them even more remarkable). I’ve read critics (supposed shutterbug ‘experts’) that dismiss Wolff’s aesthetic as murky and simplistic, but for my money he had a singular, not to mention consistently alluring, style.

Bob Koester over at Delmark even incorporates musician visages as a mandate. All Delmark covers must feature a likeness of the musician(s) in question in some manner. It’s funny how some on the roster have dealt with the decree. I remember talking to Scott Fields about it a few years ago: he balked at Koester’s demand during the production of MAMET before finally acquiescing by sending a photo of himself doing the dishes.

Re ECM: I’m pretty lukewarm on their packaging/design. It’s definitely distinctive, but one disc often seems to blend into the next in terms of appearance (appropriately enough, same holds true for some of that music).

Ps. Jurgen’s “untrammeled mammon” gets my vote for Bagatellen Phrase of the month (a new feature I also vote that we start featuring).

>but I prefer the idea of labels like Road Cone and ESP: every aspect of the product is determined solely by the artist's vision.

Well, same goes for the crummily produced CD-ROMs we were talking about to begin with..... -- Most good artistic products are the product of collaboration, & that's true of packaging too.

But crappy packaging isn't just confined to little labels or cottage industries. Witness the godawful cover to the new Lee Konitz/Alan Broadbent disc, for instance, from a well-established label like Milestone.

That Konitz cover is a strong contender for the kind of mug-shot circumstances you were talking about. Good thing the music underneath runs to the contrary end of the quality spectrum.

Another related example is Fantasy’s decision to use a near-silhouette shot of Sonny Simmons on the recent reissue of his Contemporary double album BURNING SPIRITS. This at the expense of the classic original art (featuring hand drawn pastel colored orbs in a series of descending orbits). They seem to do better with their boxed set line, the Sonny Rollins FREELANCE YEARS set for instance.

This conveniently brings up another possible tangent in the discussion- that of reissuing & repackaging. How important is the integrity of original album incarnations?

"This conveniently brings up another possible tangent in the discussion- that of reissuing & repackaging. How important is the integrity of original album incarnations?"

The sackville CD reissues need help.

I think my candidate for greatest repackaging atrocity has to be the removal of Coltrane's liner notes from _A Love Supreme_ for the _Classic Quartet Studio Sessions_ collection. Yes I know this contravenes my own diktat about poems in liner notes. But the poem is more than that: it's the implied "lyrics" behind "Psalm". Of course we could get into the many atrocities committed on the actual musical _content_ of many reissues but let's save that for a different thread....