Seems you’ve had about as busy a day as I have Brian! This one was on my list of Things To Do Today too as it turns out (though I ended up spending more time with Anla Courtis’ Tribute To Calcium, the Dropp Ensemble’s Ingen Tid, John Hudak’s Sotto Voce, John Clair’s Filigree and Mattin’s S3 than I originally intended). There are now so many Feldman albums about I’m beginning to lose track - and I don’t want to commit pen paper on this one until I’ve spent some more time with the other two versions of For John Cage in my collection. My knee jerk reaction to Fong’s reading is that it’s a bit fast, but you could say the same of Charles Curtis’ Tzadik version of Patterns In A Chromatic Field (as opposed to the De Saram version), and having seen CC do it live I was utterly convinced. Perhaps though Glenn Freeman (who I’m sure is monitoring these pages with his customary assiduity) can enlighten us (me) on the tempo indications - such as they are - in Feldman’s score (of For John Cage). I’m more impressed with CF’s version of Spring of Chosroes than with the Mode, though, as it’s the only Feldman violin piece I’ve tried playing, and it’s a bitch. I like it a lot though, which is more than I can for the early sonata. Anyway, you’ve given me a good idea for something to listen to before bedtime.

Missed a “say” in there, somewhere. Damn, time to turn this sodding machine off before I crash before it does.

Hi Dan. Quite simply, any version of For John Cage over 80 minutes does not obey Feldman’s tempo range indications. There has been much discussion on tempo in late Feldman works. In general, it turns out the faster versions obey Feldman’s tempo indications. I agree … often the slower versions (slower than Feldman’s own indications) tend to sound better. A primary goal for this recording of For John Cage was to carefully abide by tempo indications. Yes, the Hat version is also within range.

Thanks for this Glenn - knew you’d be reading this - helps with my forthcoming review. Can’t promise it for March 1st for sure but will do my best.

Interesting - the only version of “FJC” I have is the Mode, which just nudges the 82-minute mark and is thus split over two CDs. Don’t know as I need another, but maybe…

If you’re a Feldman nut it’s worth it for the two previously unreleased solo violin pieces, Phil.

so im sorry to put an only vaguely related question here. I have been listening to tons of satie piano music lately. he always seems to be a feldman precursor, at least in a very wide sense. anyway i have just been checking stuff out of the library and was wondering if there is a specific performer or recording which is specifically recomended?

SWS:
Where Satie is concerned, I am very fond of pianists Aldo Ciccolini & Pascal Roge.

The 2CD set by Reinbert de Leeuw on Duo.

the aldo complete piano works is what ive been spinning and liking, and i have heard the popular tunes since i was little, gymnopedies etc.. thanks for the recs

“The 2CD set by Reinbert de Leeuw on Duo.”

A second rec for de Leeuw on these…

Thirds on the de Leeuw Duo set from Philips. My one pseudo-resolution this year is to delve into more Classical chamber recordings & I

The Ciccolini readings, which was the first I ever heard Satie back around ‘73, have always remained my favorites. Exactly the right balance of Romanticism and rigor for my taste. His version of the Nocturne #4 is one of my single favorite pieces of music, anywhere, ever.

His version of the Nocturne #4 is one of my single favorite pieces of music, anywhere, ever.

Brian, my current count of your “very favorite” “most favorite” or “single favorite” item of music is now approaching 4 digits. You need a new superlative. I’m thinking “The Absolute SUPizznit”.

Tosh. The “anywhere, ever” qualifier is never, ever used anywhere, ever except in the most extreme cases.

Whatever happened to Paul Morley?

reduced to a pundit on TV list shows. I enjoyed his last book, though, which covered Kylie Minogue, Van Der Graaf Generator and Henry Cow. Amongst others.

I’d like to cover Kylie Minogue myself..

It’s a bit late, being nearly March already, but I’ve just decided that in 2006, I will only have two ratings for music: “approaches tolerability” or “ass-rapingly great.” Watch the pages of The Wire to see how this doctrine shakes out under the editorial iron fist of new reviews headman Nick Cain.

Phil, I’m still trying to get my head around “ass-rapingly great” as a superlative.

I’d like to ask a question about Feldman, if I may.

Glenn, do your comments on tempo apply as well to Three Voices - For Joan LaBarbara? I enjoy the work (on New Albion) but have heard harsh criticism of the ‘forced’ tempo.

The other recorded version of the piece (the Ensemble Accroche Note on Empreintes Digitales) is slower by six minutes, and sounds more comfortable to me. But it’s not one of my favourite Feldman pieces, and I haven’t seen the score. Glenn?

Unless I’m mistaken, this piece was written for Joan LaBarbara, and several of her performances were given in Feldman’s presence and possibly under his supervision. In which case, it’s unlikely that LaBarbara would buck Feldman’s tempo recommendations. As to whether the tempo is ‘forced’, I have no idea, as the New Albion recording is the only one I’ve heard. But as it’s far from my favourite piece by Feldman, I’m not inclined to buy another interpretation.

Derek: I’m still trying to get my head around “ass-rapingly great” as a superlative.

Don’t worry, Derek, I’m sure The Wire will tone it down to avoid readership apoplexy. Likely it’ll become something less violent. Perhaps: bum-abusingly great.

I’m kinda partial to “rump-spankingly great” myself, it speaks to Phil’s fetishistic side, as in Skull Immolator’s new double album Death By a Million Subcutaneous Paper Cuts is rump-spankingly great.

More comments re Feldman, if that’s not too off-off-topic:

The comments about the over-fast tempo on Three Voices were directed specifically at Foster Reed, New Albion producer, not so much miss LaBarbara in her role as an accomplice. I’m wondering if it’s true that the recording was done at a tempo so fast as to squeeze the work on one CD — as I was told — and if anyone here saw a live performance from the early 80’s and can confirm any of this.

“the recording was done at a tempo so fast as to squeeze the work on one CD”
That shouldn’t be an issue - the other recording lasts 55 minutes. A CD lasts 80. It’s not like they were pushed for time.Maybe you mean LP Tom? But as I say I haven’t seen the score, and don’t particularly like the piece that much. I’m a big Joan fan though.

I much prefer the Joan LaBarbara performance in every respect. For me, the Ensemble Accroche version never seems to gel. I believe late Feldman (and this work in particular) works best when a strict pulse and accurate rhythm are present. Ironically, the arhythmic/magical aspects of these late works (you know, that “floating” quality) do not arise if a strong sense of precision is lacking in the performance. This is one of my all time favorite works by Feldman, perhaps because I am a great admirer of Philip Glass’s music and that area of the musical spectrum … Three Voices comes as close to Glass’s aesthetic as Feldman ever got.

Any chance of a forthcoming Glass release on the label? I see from Googling that Christina has played Strung Out and 1+1 (in any case, after Koyaanisqatsi, what is there? In fact you could draw the line in the sand even earlier & stop before Satyagraha).

Glenn: “I believe late Feldman (and this work in particular) works best when a strict pulse and accurate rhythm are present. Ironically, the arhythmic/magical aspects of these late works (you know, that “floating” quality) do not arise if a strong sense of precision is lacking in the performance.”

This is pretty much what John Tilbury said to me about playing Feldman’s music. His CD performances of ‘Palais de Mari’ and ‘Triadic Memories’ are, for example, pacier than most, which at first I found disconcerting. Up to then I’d mostly preferred performances that moved at the slowest possible speed within Feldman’s tempo recommendations (when given). This gave the music a pleasingly languorous quality. But it also tended to break up rhythm and sound continuities that were implied in the music, to separate the music into islands of sound in an ocean of silence. Tilbury said (here comes paraphrase) that, from his conversations with Feldman, his understanding (here comes paraphrase again) was that F wanted there to be a feeling of seamlessness within each of his compositions, that they should flow. Therefore the best tempo is one which enables these continuities to be felt. Silences, in general, were undesirable; each new sound event should overlap slightly with the previously sound event at its furthest point of decay. The speed at which one plays the piece then becomes of particular importance. If too slow, you produce silences and create discontinuities; if too swift, the music sounds uncomfortable and feels congested. Another factor for a piano player is the instrument: if its sustain is greater than expected, it might be best to choose a slower tempo than the tempo that was ‘right’ for another piano with a slightly lesser degree of sustain. Also the size of the room in which the performance is to take place, and its acoustic, may effect one’s decision about tempo.

I should perhaps also point out that, over time, I’ve come to see Tilbury’s tempo choices in Feldman’s late works as appropriate, and slower performances by other players now seem to drag.

Yes, there are several deadly versions of Triadic Memories out there for sure..

Dan, we had planned to record Philip Glass and Michael Nyman from the start when we started our recording company in 1998. There is at least 3 CDs worth of yet-to-be-recorded Glass and Nyman works for violin/strings, including Glass’s “A Madrigal Opera” and Nyman’s “Two Violins” which are both important, yet unknown, works in my opinion. Christina has performed every piece written for violin|viola by both Glass and Nyman; there are quite a few! The difficult part is getting permission from Glass/Nyman to record their yet-to-be-recorded music. Perhaps someday that will change. Onward to yet-to-be-recorded Schoenberg (a full CD of string works/fragments, really!).

Brian, Tilbury is my favorite Feldman interpreter on piano. His 4CD set along with the Scholz/Persson multiple piano recording and Petrina’s CD provide excellent renditions of 98% of what Feldman wrote for piano. It makes sense that Tilbury has similar views on performing Feldman.

great info, Brian, thanks!

Glenn, are there Schoenberg chamber pieces for strings other than the obvious ones? (The quartets the trio and the piece for violin and piano?)

(This is exciting.)

Walto, many are fragments that are worth hearing. Below is what has yet to be recorded. We are planning to record them in a few months.

March (undated) for violin
Romance in d (undated) [2 of 3 parts] for violin & viola
Alliance Waltz (1882) for 2 violins
Sunshine Polka (1882) for 2 violins
3 Songs Without Words (1882) for 2 violins
10 Waltzes (189?) for strings
Waltz (189?) [fragment] for strings
String Quartet in F (1897) [fragment]
Dead Point (1899) [fragment] for string sextet
String Quintet (1899) [sketch from Transfigured Night]
Duo in D (1900) [fragment] for violin and piano
String Quartet in C (1904) [fragment]
String Quartet in d (1904) [fragment]
String Quintet (1904/05) [sketch]
String Quintet (1906/07) [sketch]
String Septet (1918) [fragment]
String Quartet (1923) [fragment]
String Quartet (1926) [fragment]
String Quartet (1926) [fragment]
String Quartet in C (1927) [fragment]
Duo (1930) [fragment] for violin and piano
Mirror Canon in 4 Parts (1931/32) for string quartet
Fugue (1938) [fragment]
String Quartet (1949) [fragment]

Why? Isn’t it better to leave them as fragments? We have no idea what Arnold would have done with them, or whether he’d have done anything with them, do we? I can understand a desire to release previously unrecorded work but complete works, not bits and pieces. What do these ‘fonds de tiroir’ have to tell us?

That’s an age-old dispute to which I can’t add much. But I take it that Glenn is “leaving them as fragments” (i.e., not attempting to complete them). Certainly historians/scholars might be interested in hearing what S was up to at these various points in his development. Also, for good or ill, I’m personally glad Kafka’s desire to have all his stuff destroyed wasn’t fulfilled.

Dan, you should have also noticed that about 1/3 of what we will record are not fragments, but complete works. Also, what do you think about the below quote?

“The perfected works are of less value to the great man than those fragments upon which they work throughout their lives. For only the weaker and more distraught individual finds incomparable joy in concluding a work, experiencing in so doing, that he is granted return to this own life. To the genius in his workshop, the interruption, the severe blow of fate is the same as the gentle hand of sleep. He captures the magic circle thereof in a fragment. ‘Genius is diligence’.” - Adorno

I would much rather record, release and listen to a fragment by Schoenberg than one of the 10s of 1000s of complete works not worth hearing at all. I’ve told you that both Glass and Nyman will not let us record their yet-to-be-recorded works. Schoenberg was Cage’s teacher, so it makes sense to move backward if we are not allowed to move forward.

“Dan, you should have also noticed that about 1/3 of what we will record are not fragments, but complete works.”
Hmm. They all seem to predate the atonal period, and, if the titles alone are anything to go by, sound rather slight. If you’d found another Gurrelieder that might be something. Sorry, I’m sceptical, but then I’m not a great Schoenberg fan, as Walter can confirm. Most of the pre-Gurrelieder and post 1923 stuff (with the exception of the String Trio and Survivor from Warsaw I can do perfectly well without).
“What do you think about the below quote?”
That depends if you want to study music or listen to it. It seems to me that Schoenberg is a composer whose works are studied rather than listened to (unlike Berg and Webern). I don’t get much pleasure out of Adorno either, to be honest, but I suppose it’s blasphemous to go public and say so.
As far as Glass and Nyman not letting you release their work (what’s the matter? let me guess.. too expensive? I could tell you some stories about those two that would make your toes curl up), I doubt it’s any great loss, especially if we’re talking works written post 1984, by which time both had more or less stopped writing anything worth listening to.

Dan, with Glass/Nyman, money is not the issue. Based on what Christina has done, and can do, with their music, quality and expertise is also not an issue. Issues of fame (perception of label, philosophy, lineage and mass distribution) along with cronyism (Zukofsky/Balanescu) seem the only issues. Are you against all forms of tonal music? Do you consider yourself a modernist? I am mainly focused on performing, recording and listening to great pieces and/or composers (yes, not always the same) yet to be heard, without regard for style or philosophy. Study is not my concern, but those who study might find what we do appealing.

Dan, I did not mean to write are you against all forms of tonal music … that is obviously not the case. I guess you simply do not like most Schoenberg. I happen to like it a lot. That is where we differ in our opinion.

By the way, I can not listen to most Berg and Webern … do not like much of it at all. Schoenberg is much different for me.

“That depends if you want to study music or listen to it”

it seems to me the more the music is difficult the more we of neccessity narrow the gap between listening and studying until it is a more or less seamless process. i can cook dinner while listening to django. but other kinds of music demand more finely tuned attention. my desire generally tends toward the latter, if i’m not hungry that is.

FWIW, I like all the “new Vienna School” gang. But I agree with Glenn that Schoenberg was the greatest of them. And I’m very much looking forward to hear these fragments and sketches. I think I’m capable of keeping in mind that they weren’t finished/possibly would have been discarded or incorporated into another piece/whatever.

I was once described as post-modernist by Ben Watson (which as insults go is about as good as Ben gets), but I get as much pleasure out of mainstream modernism in music and visual arts as I do out of more trendy stuff. I just have a problem with the twelve tone Schoenberg stuff, that’s all. I can’t see how anyone can possibly enjoy a deadly, ugly thing like the Piano Concerto or the Variations for Orchestra after having heard Erwartung or Die Gluckliche Hand. It’s not an anti-serial thing either, at all: I’m a huge fan of Wolpe, Dallapiccola and Boulez (the composer not the commentator) and especially late Stravinsky. Certainly not against tonal music either - Michael Nyman and Philip Glass were both huge influences on my own music in the early 80s (I went to the States to do PhD on Glass, and ended up switching to Reich), and I’d rate Music in 12 Parts and Einstein On The Beach as highly as anything produced in the 20th century. But as I said above, and more recently in the Wire article on Phill Niblock, Messrs Reich and Glass have little to say to me anymore.

Can’t let that “deadly, ugly” remark just pass. As Dan knows from former contretemps on this issue, I think the only really unsavory later S piece is one of the only two(!) Dan likes: “Survivor from Warsaw.” I consider both the Piano Concerto and “Variations” beautiful and essential, and the concerto is particularly interesting to study because, like the Berg violin concerto, it goes down relatively easy with symphony orchestra audiences in spite of its strict serialism. That’s not easy.

The Berg Violin Concerto, a bit sugary though it might be, has become standard rep. How often is the Schoenberg Piano Concerto performed these days? But do you seriously prefer the Op 31 Variations to Erwartung or Jakobsleiter? Well in any case Walt and I are NEVER going to agree on Schoenberg :) (though I think we find common ground on Elliott Carter ;-) perhaps someone else wants to weigh in on this one. Or we can bugger off elsewhere and chip in on Derek’s new mixtapes thread.

For whatever reason, the piano concerto is played a lot in Boston. (Maybe it was premiered or commissioned here or something?) I personally prefer Jakobsleiter to both that concerto and the Variations, but keep in mind, Jakobsleiter is a fragment! I thought you were against those being performed!

Dan, this is a great discussion! Aside from a few differences, we all have so much in common. We must all have really weird tastes in music. By the way, one of your favorite pieces (Paris Transatlantic review) on Fong’s new Feldman is also, perhaps, a fragment. Do you hear Feldman’s [Composition] for violin (1984) as a fragment or a completed work (no double bar exists at the end of the final measure)? Looking forward to your review of the Schoenberg DVD we release in the future …

Yes, you’re right, both of you. But I think Jakobsleiter is a bit more substantial than a five-minute fond de tiroir. And you’re right to push me on the idea of fragments - I wouldn’t for one minute argue that the first mvt of Mahler 10 shouldn’t be performed just because Gustav didn’t finish the rest of the symphony. (Same goes for Schubert’s Unfinished Symphony for that matter)
And you’re right to pull me up on the Feldman, but perhaps you can clarify the issue further Glenn - is the Composition really a fragment or a finished piece in its own right? Sabat’s article on the piece doesn’t exactly make this clear. Whatever it is, it sounds great.
Yours, inconsistently as ever

The piece is untitled (like the early [sonata]) so our naming convention refers to it as [composition] for violin and lists a date of composition. In Feldman’s own handwriting are the words “Universal Edition 1984″ which seems to suggest Feldman intended for it be published. Also, there is a chance this piece actually has a name — “100 Precious Things” … take a look at the liner notes of Zukofsky’s version of For John Cage. Even though I hear [composition] 1984 as a complete work, it is of no concern. All sounds are “complete” from a listener’s point of view, right? Those more concerned with the study of music make too much out of this idea “complete”, right? From my point of view, if written music exists it is worth realizing and hearing, especially if Feldman or Schoenberg, etc. took the time to write it down on paper. Those who choose to study music can study it … I prefer to perform and listen to music.

“In Feldman’s own handwriting are the words “Universal Edition 1984″ which seems to suggest Feldman intended for it be published.”
From what you say it sounds less like a fragment then and more a previously unperformed finished composition. It certainly doesn’t sound like a fragment.
“Also, there is a chance this piece actually has a name — “100 Precious Things” … take a look at the liner notes of Zukofsky’s version of For John Cage.”
Ah, I don’t have a copy of his version of FJC. What does he say?

Re Sch

Dan, sold our Zukofsky FJC recording long ago … perhaps someone else can post what is written in regard to “100 Precious Things”?

Zukofsky’s liner notes here: http://www.musicalobservations.com/recordings/cp2_101.html

“sold our Zukofsky FJC recording long ago”

Me too. I hated it. I don’t know what Zukofsky intended with re pitch, but I found his playing unpleasant.

No such problem with the OgreOgress CD under discussion, I’m happy to say.

It may be the case that ‘[composition] for violin]’ is a remnant of the solo violin piece that Zukofsky commissioned but Feldman felt unable to deliver. According to Zukofsky, that piece was to be called ‘100 Precious Things’.

I love the pile of Feldman I have and listen to all of it, but I have to say that pile is enough of a pile. Turning to fragments seems to me like milking a cow dry. I could see where a serious musician, or musicologist might want to study them in relation to the finished works and so forth, the same way a critic or biographer might want to read a major poet’s fragments or see the various alterations leading up to the finished poem, and so on, but as a pleasure listener, I can’t really fathom a need for having them on the shelf.

I can fathom the need. I want to hear it all. I wish I had the ears to hear a score on sight. I cannot so a CD will have to do.

As an aside, seeing Christine Fong playing Feldman in an abandoned bank vault in Grand Rapids, early ninties, changed my life for the better.

As I said in my review over at PT, if you’re a serious Feldman junky Gary you need this one if only for the two early 80s pieces (which, as far as I’ve been able to ascertain from this thread, aren’t fragments at all but finished pieces, albeit perhaps preparatory studies for later larger scale works). But I know what you mean - I’m looking at over a hundred Feldman discs here and wondering, as ever, when I’m going to be able to sit down and listen to them all again. If ever. Sobering thought.

It all depends on which cow is being milked.

Make mine the magic one with Maker

Dan, I hear you. I’ve been wrestling with that completist demon in numerous directions for the past few years and have gotten it under control, somewhat. I think, as a listener, things are actually better for the effort. I’m listening more and spending more time doing it, to the music I already own, which is a very considerable mass.

I guess all of our mileage may vary, depending on the artist and our relationship to the music. It was Brian who turned me on to Feldman via John Tilbury and until very recently I’ve automatically bought every new (or new to me) Feldman title I came across (with the exception of the eight-hour quartet, not because I’d not like to hear it but because in my life there will never be an eight hour stretch to listen to it as a piece).

Anyways, now I’m much more relaxed about it and have spent a lot of time with the Feldman I already have (which doesn’t compare with yours but it’s very easily the most of any “classical” composer).

so thanks to everyone who reccomended that 2 cd satie set on duo by reinart de leeuw. i got it today and listened striaght through so totally entranced. the power of the slow apporach subtly takes you over.